Talk:Mitsubishi J8M

Sword Stroke

Untitled

"Every published reference gives Shusui as "'sword stroke'".

The fact is, "shuusui" (秋水) in Japanese literally means "autumn water". And you don't even need to know any Japanese to see that -- the two other models derived from the J8M share the first ideogram, and they are translated as "autumn grass" and "autumn fire". Nor does "sword stroke" fit at all into the naming conventions of WWII Japanese aircraft.

I was able to find a Japanese reference explaining the issue.

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~FlyWing/JapaneseTaillessPlane/Shusui.html

"Shuusui" is also a poetic metaphor for "a sharpened sword". Still poetic, but a bit more literally, it refers to "settled autumn water". The (mis)translation as "sword stroke" probably originated from Robert C. Mikesh, though the above page states that Mikesh understood it to mean "settled water".

So the issue is, should Wikipedia try to correct this historical error? I'd like to have this entry translate "Shusui" literally as "autumn water", followed by "sword stroke" as a common translation in English-language references, and then we can expound on that if we have to. - - Paul Richter 07:39, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it is a mistake. Given that "autumn water" is (uncontestably) the more literal translation, I wonder then what would have led Mikesh to have chosen and published the more poetic version? He was not noted for being sloppy in his research.

I think that "Sword stroke"/"sharpened sword" fits in well with late-war naming of Japanese aircraft - look at the poetic rationale behind the names of the Ohka and "Kikka" (Kitsuka). I can easily imagine that the name was meant to evoke images of the aircraft being as quick and deadly as a sword stroke - but this is purely speculation on my part of course!

Given that the translation has stood unchallenged for decades, I'm suggesting leaving it, but including a note as to its alternate, literal meaning. I think this fits better with the Wikipedia principle of not being a place for original research.

Any ideas for who/where we could refer the question to for greater insight? --Rlandmann 08:36, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Going with "sword stroke" and the explanation seems all right to me. Though it still feels kinda like saying the F-15 is named after a 2-under-par golf stroke... oh well.

Attributing the translation to Mikesh is speculation on my part, and "sword stroke" is somewhat less than "widely recognized", but those are all minor.

I'm going to dig in to the matter a little more at the public libraries here in Tokyo. I'll let you know if I find anything good! - - Paul Richter 09:29, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - I thought that you took the Mikesh attribution from the website that you referenced? - I'll remove it. Anything concrete you can turn up on the metaphor would be appreciated! The comment that it is widely recognised is based on the fact that it's at least well-known enough to show up in free on-line dictionaries...

Names are funny things, often more than the sum of their parts. A counter-example to your F-15 analogy above would be insisting on translating "UH-60 Blackhawk" into Italian as "UH-60 Falconero". --Rlandmann 14:23, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This doesn't really help, but my dictionary translates 三尺の秋水 (sanshaku no shuusui) as "an icy three-foot steel" (!) --Auximines 14:25, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Can I throw in a compromise suggestion? I've seen it translated "rigorous sword", which suggests the objective. That the doesn't fit existing naming systems may be explained by her being jet-propelled. (I've no source to support that...)

On the spex: can we del the repeats? They don't change. What about a "master spec", with variants indicated? (Also, I'm changing the cannon/MG # pos; as is, it suggests an "X2/X3" type #...) Can somebody clarify where the guns were mounted? Given IJN/A practise, I'd guess wings, but...

And while I'm at it, can somebody translate Shuka? Trekphiler 22:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's quite posible that 秋水 makes refference to the tale about testing Masamune's sword in the stream during autumn. Perhaps a literal translation, and a footnote would be in order. --Yorinaga 05:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Yorinaga. "秋水" has its origin in Chinese word 秋水 (qiu shui) or 秋水盈盈 (qiu shui ying ying), meaning "clear autumn water". Also, the word was used to express pureness and cleanness. Later its usage was expanded to "pure heart", "clear reflection of a sword", "pure eye of a woman", and Japanese language adopted the expanded usages, too.
Literal trancelation only does not show the idea of pureness and cleanness.
"Sword Stroke" is a mistrancelation.I310342 23:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)I310342

-- To round this off. I notice the article now has an explanation that when Shusui means "sword stroke", it is being used onomatopeically. Which works for me! Xyl 54 (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

A good explanation and a different name are given in Dyers Secret projects, which seems well written. He states that the Kanji characters translate as Syūsui - Autumn Water alluding to the wavy pattern on a sharpened sword, as well as the brightness of the sharpened metal reminding the poet of of waves on abodyof clear water.Petebutt (talk) 18:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Materials

The cited reference describes the process by which materials were provided by Germany and transported to Japan. There is no mention of any sample aircraft or engines, so I've removed it from the article. -- Paul Richter 03:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

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