Talk:Mkrtich Khrimian

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mkrtich Khrimian/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 18:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

This looks like an interesting article, I'll give it a review. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• In general it looks well structured, which is always nice to see.

Prose comments:

• " was an Armenian religious leader" - probably best to say " was an Armenian Christian leader" here, or even "was an Armenian Oriental Orthodox leader", as the term "religious" obviously can cover many different things. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• "During these period he established" - this should be "During this period, he established". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Ottoman government" - I think we need a link here and a brief explanation that Khrimian lived within the Ottoman Empire. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• "his progressive activities since the mid-19th century " - I'm not really sure what the article is trying to convey here. I think it would be clearer if this article went with "his progressive activities from the mid-19th century". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• "died when Mkrtich was little" - "was a child". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• There are additional citations required in the "Early life, education, and travels" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• The middle paragraph of the lede is nine sentences long (at least in my browser); perhaps it would look good if it were divided in two, perhaps with "Returning from Europe" being the start of a new sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• " Returning from Europe, he advocated an armed struggle against the Ottoman Turks by Armenian peasants to achieve autonomy or independence like the Christian Balkan peoples." This could perhaps be reworded so that it flows a little more smoothly. How about: "Returning from Europe, he encouraged Armenian peasants to follow the example of Christian Balkan peoples by launching an armed struggle for autonomy or independence from the Ottoman Turks." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "in Aygestan (Aikesdan) quarter" should probably be "in the Aygestan (Aikesdan) quarter". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "The root of his last name, Khrim, translates to Crimea, which suggests an apparent link" - Again, this could perhaps be phrased in a manner that reads more cleanly. "The root of his last name, Khrim, is the Armenian language term for Crimea, suggesting a link..." ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "he was brought up by his uncle, Khachatur, a merchant." Can we get a citation for this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Khrimian wished to continue his education at a European university, but his wish never realized" - "wish" appears twice, and thus is a little repetitive. How about "Khrimian wished to continue his education at a European university, but this desire was never realized" ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "a journey throughout the region" - "a journey across the region" might be better. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

yes,  Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "He received informal education at parochial schools of Lim and Ktuts islands in Lake Van and Varagavank, where he studied classical Armenian, history, ecclesiastical literature". Should of be on, here? Also, there should be an "and" before "ecclesiastical literature". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

added "and". Parochial schools on X and Y islands? --Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "and Russian Caucasus" - and the Russian Caucasus? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

yes,  Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "He thereafter committed himself to the Armenian people and its church" - this feels a bit jingoistic, particularly the "committed himself to the Armenian people". Perhaps something like "he decided to devote himself to a life in the Armenian Apostolic Church" would be more neutral and encyclopaedic. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

agreed,  Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 11:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "In Constantinople he was "shocked at the indifference and disdain with which the Armenian elite and bourgeois classes in the capital viewed their kinsmen in the provinces."[" Is this a direct quote from Khrimian himself or a quote from someone else? If the first, can we make that explicit in the prose; if the latter, then we should paraphrase rather than utilising a direct quotation. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed, it's a quote from Hacikyan et al. I paraphrased it.--Երևանցի ^talk 12:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• " after his wife and daughter died" - this has already been mentioned, so no need to repeat it at this juncture. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 12:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Khrimian began publishing Artsiv Vaspurakan at a publishing house next to the church at Scutari" - "publishing.. publishing" is a bit repetitive, and the Scutari church has already been introduced. How about "Khrimian began production of the periodical Artsiv Vaspurakan at a publishing house located next to his Scutari church." That's much cleaner. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 12:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• "established Zharangavorats School at Varagavank monastery" - the Zharangavorats School? Also, give a reference at the end of this sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Added "the". Not every single sentence needs to be referenced. If two consecutive sentences are from the same source, we generally put a citation only at end of the last sentence. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "He resumed the publication of Artsiv Vaspurakan in 1859 at the monastery's publishing house, which he founded.[23] Its publication continued until 1864". This could be restructured to flow more smoothly. For instance "He founded a publishing house at the monastery, through which he resumed the publication of Artsiv Vaspurakan in 1859.[23] Its publication continued until 1864". Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "He achieved removal of excessive taxes on Armenians" - whether taxes are excessive or not is probably an issue of dispute. How about "He succeeded in convincing the wali (governor) of the Erzurum Vilayet to lower taxes for Armenians"? Were the taxes just for Armenians or where they for everybody? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Yes, the taxes for Armenians was different from those for Muslims. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "On 20 October 1868 Khrimian was ordained as a bishop in Etchmiadzin." - whenever a sentence starts with a date or year, there should be a comma directly after it. Also, rather than "Etchmiadzin" I would use "Etchmiadzin Cathedral". Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "According to Tekkoyun" - who is this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed. He is a Turkish scholar of religion [1]--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "his election indicated that the Amira (wealthiest) class and the empire lost power over the Armenians" - I'm not really sure what is being conveyed here. Could this be reworded? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• There are two links to the Sublime Porte in fairly quick succession. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "An Armenian author wrote in 1896 " - do we know who this Armenian author was? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed. Replaced with the name of the author.--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• I would suggest merging the sections "Monasteries of Varag and Surb Karapet" and "Patriarch of Constantinople" together. Neither are particularly lengthy and would be a more appropriate length if merged. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Khrimian was the leader of the Armenian delegation at the Congress of Berlin in the aftermath of the 1877–78 Russo-Turkish War" This could work better as "In the aftermath of the 1877–78 Russo-Turkish War, Khrimian led the Armenian delegation to the Congress of Berlin." Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "the first signal of Armenian revolutionary movement" - there would need to be a the before "Armenian". Also, we could perhaps find a better word than "signal". Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "the secret Armenian societies of national liberation" - perhaps "the Armenian secret societies devoted to the cause of national liberation"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• "In December 1890" - comma needed after the year. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 18:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• The "Varagavank" and "Surb Karapet" sub-sections contain only a sentence or two each. Is there any additional information that can be included in each? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:48, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Not much can be added. I've merged the two section into one.--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "which looked unfavorably at his activities" should be "which looked unfavorably on his activities". Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Khrimian was elected Catholicos on 5 May 1892 unanimously (72 votes in favor) at an election held in Etchmiadzin, Armenia's religious center". This could run more smoothly. How about "On 5 May 1892, an election held at Etchniadzin, Armenia's religious center, unanimously elected Khrimian to the position of Catholicos of the Armenian Apostolic Church"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "russify" should probably be capitalised. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "In 1895 he traveled to Saint Petersburg where he met Tsar Nicholas II of Russia to request the implementation of reforms in Armenian provinces of the Ottoman Empire." Some additional punctuation could help here. "In 1895, he traveled to Saint Petersburg to meet the Russian Tsar Nicholas II and request the implementation of reforms in the Ottoman Empire's Armenian provinces." Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:05, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "During the Hamidian massacres of 1894–96, Khrimian materially helped the Armenian refugees" - "During the Hamidian massacres of 1894–96, Khrimian provided material assistance to the Armenian refugees"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:05, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "put the Armenian Church under the jurisdiction" - "incorporate the Armenian Church under the jurisdiction" may work better. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "The act had, primarily, the purpose to accelerate the process of Russification of the Armenian people and church" - I would reword this as "The act had the primary purpose of accelerating the Russification of the Armenian people and church"; there is also no need to link Russification because it has already been linked to. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "to organize mass demonstrations" - clarify what these demonstrations were for: "mass demonstrations against the edict". Something like that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "According to Rouben Paul Adalian it was the to popular resistance, led by Dashnaktsutyun, and the personal defiance of Khrimian, that caused the edict to be canceled in 1905". There are some problems with the prose here ("the to"?) and in general it could be smoother over quite a bit. "According to the historian Rouben Paul Adalian, it was a combination of Dashnaktsutyun's popular resistance and Khrimian's personal defiance that resulted in the edict being canceled in 1905". Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 09:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Forbidden by the Ottomans to travel to Echmiadzin across Ottoman territory, he was compelled to travel via Jaffa–Alexandria–Trieste–Vienna–Odessa–Sevastopol–Batumi–Tiflis." I'm not sure that the present means of listing the stop-off points really works. I would reword this sentence as "The Ottoman government forbade Khrimian from traveling to Echmiadzin through their territory, and so he was required to travel via Jaffa, Alexandria, Triests, Vienna, Odessa, Sevastopol, Batumi, and then Tiflis." Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• If we mention Dashanks, then we should have a link. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

where?--Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• "According to Panossian Khrimian thus radicalised" - we need a comma after "Panossian", lest someone think "Panossian Khrimian" as a separate individual. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• No need for separate sub-sections titled "Dedications" and "Cultural depictions" given that they contain so very little information. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• "Khrimian is the subject of paintings of several prominent Armenian artists, such as Ivan Aivazovsky and Vardges Sureniants." needs a citation. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

All those paintings are included in the article. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• There should not be so many lone sentences in this lower part of the article. I would merge them into a single paragraph. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

All those paintings are included in the article. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Images:

• We need to know why File:Khrimian and Van Armenian notables.png is in the public domain in Armenia. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The photo is from Van in present-day Turkey. How is the modern Republic of Armenia relevant here? --Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• The same likely goes for File:Мкртич Хримян.jpg. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Its author, Vardges Sureniants, died in 1921. According to Armenian law, if 70 years have passed since the author's death their work become PD [2] --Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Has seventy years passed since File:Catholicos Khrimian portrait.png was first published (not just taken)? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Per Armenian law ... "for anonymous works or pseudonymous works 70 years after creation" [3] --Երևանցի ^talk 23:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• We need tags to indicate hwo File:Aivazovsky - Catholicos Khrimyan Airik near Echmiadzin.jpg is Public Domain in the United States and in both Ukraine and Russia (anything in Crimea now causes these problems due to issues of legal jurisdiction). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It is in both countries. It's author, Ivan Aivazovsky, died in 1900. According to laws of both countries all his works are now PD. I've added the appropriate licensing tags.--Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• How is File:Khrimian Hmayak Hakobian.png PD in the US? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I've removed this image because 1) Hakobyan is not a well known artist as attested by the lack of an article in English Wikipedia 2) it's redundant --Երևանցի ^talk 22:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Referencing:

• The "Publications" section is largely unreferenced. That needs to be corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed --Երևանցի ^talk 23:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• The style of referencing is higgledy-piggledy because at least two different modes of referencing have been employed. I would advise standardising all sources to the 'harv-' style already employed for sources like Kostandyan 2006 and Tekkoyun 2011. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there a Wikipedia principle that say we have to use a uniform style of referencing? --Երևանցի ^talk 23:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Not at the GA level, but it would certainly improve the readability of the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• Christopher J. Walker's book Armenia is cited five times without any page numbers. Those really need to be included. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Երևանցի ^talk 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Standardise the formatting of sources listed in the "Bibliography". For instance, Vartooguian's Armenia's ordeal contains no publisher name. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I rearranged the sources in alphabetical order. Vartooguian's book has no publisher's name indicated. You can look it up online just in case. --Երևանցի ^talk 23:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I see; that indicates that it was privately published, so I've added that information to the reference. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

This is quite a bit to be getting on with, but if it can be successfully completed within a reasonable period of time then I think it likely that this article would meet the GA criteria without too much trouble. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks for your patience as I have made my way through this article, Երևանցի. Some good work has gone on here and I am now content that it meets the GA criteria. If you are thinking about getting it to Featured Article status, I would definitely look to expand it a little. I think that there are many areas where additional detail would be welcome. I also think that it could do with going through peer review to further improve the use of language. However, at present I am happy to pass this as a GA. Well done! Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

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