Talk:Moberly–Jourdain incident

Latest comment: 4 years ago by Xxanthippe in topic GA icon
Good articleMoberly–Jourdain incident has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 25, 2008Good article nomineeListed
March 3, 2016Good article reassessmentKept
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on November 19, 2007.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the gardens of the Petit Trianon were once thought to be haunted?
Current status: Good article

GA on hold

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Some nice work you've done here Majorly. :) Leave a note on my talk page when you're done with this stuff...and it'll be your first GA? Yay! Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 07:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

And yes, good work Majorly, you've done a good job here. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 07:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
And passed! dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 08:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
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Much of this article has been taken directly from Seriously Weird True Stories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.171.74.8 (talk) 21:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

As the main author of this article, I'll tell you you're wrong. I have never read/seen that book, and all the sources used are listed at the bottom of the article. Al Tally talk 21:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Reply
As the author of most of the Explanation section I will say that I had never heard of the book mentioned by the unsigned anon. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC).Reply

Tidy up

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The article appears to be much based on a potboiler of shaky scholarship written by a credulous alcoholic journalist. A more scholarly and far-reaching account of the story is given by Terry Castle ("Contagious Folly: An Adventure and Its Skeptics", Critical Inquiry, volume 7, number 4, pages 741-772, 1991), a reputable scholar whose facts may be relied upon although her feminist interpretations now bear a quaint 20th century air. I have tried to make the article more balanced although it really needs to be rewritten on the basis of Castle's account rather than Farson's. Castle also deals with important material relating to the subsequent lives of the two women and which casts doubt on their story. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC).Reply

In this edit I have tried to: a) Make the article more NPOV by adding material about why the critics received the story so unfavourably. b) Change to the use of sources whose provenance and pedigree can be more readily ascertained than those of anonymous web sites. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC).Reply


It is not generally known that there have been further sightings at the Palace of Versailles of people who dressed and behaved as aristocrats at the time of the French Revolution. These were not actors, as they appeared and disappeared more like apparitions. The witnesses claimed to have no knowledge of the original Moberly and Jourdain account. None of these cases are as comprehensive as the original account, however they do lend some credence to the Moberly and Jourdain case. The explanation could lay in the nature of time itself. I have to admit that I have experienced a timeslip into the future. These are much rarer than retro timelips but they do occur. They share a certain characteristic with a retro timeslip in that they focus on one particular place. The future time slip is even harder to explain. The past could have left a recording that can then be replayed under the right conditions, but the future is supposed to be unwritten -but is it?62.254.173.34 (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

Interesting. Do give sources for further sightings. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC).Reply
I'd love to know more about this, too. --RThompson82 (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Revisit several years later?

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Didn't one of the two women revisit Versailles several years later, this time going to the Hameau de la reine? It was in late fall or sometime in winter. She heard violin music but couldn't figure out where it was coming from, and when she asked staff about music being performed at Hameau de la reine, they said no musician(s) performed there in winter months. --RThompson82 (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

"Gatecrashed a gay fancy dress party"

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The source given in the article is Joan Evan's book, not the Phillipe Julian biography of de Montesquiou. If the 1967 translation of the latter does include the entire phrase "gatecrashed a gay fancy dress party", then obviously it goes in. As I don't have a copy, can someone confirm that this is what it says? Ghughesarch (talk) 13:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Reference added. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC).Reply

Copied from my talk page:== Moberly–Jourdain incident == "Gay fancy dress party" is not a direct quote. "Gay" had a totally different meaning in the old times "happy, cheerful" and readers might incorrectly assume the modern meaning of the word. The characters were not being described as gay in the modern sense on the word. SlightSmile 23:14, 16 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

WP:Copyvio is not allowed. Ref. 27, which I use as source, was written in 2012 and uses "gay" with the modern usage of that word. If you doubt that the Montesquiou menage was "gay" then I suggest that you read Philippe Jullian's book. I have copied this exchange from my talk page to the talk page of Moberly and Jourdain, where it ought to be. Further discussion should take place here. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC).Reply
I see. I had assumed it was a description from 1901. Thanks for clarifying. SlightSmile 00:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Intriguingly, Marcel Proust could well have been among the revellers. He was a close friend of de Montesquiou, a fellow homosexual and, as is well known, an eager hangaround at private parties and dress balls like these. 83.254.150.36 (talk) 03:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Interesting thought, but there is no supporting evidence. Proust was never in the Montesquiou inner circle (see biographies). Xxanthippe (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC).Reply

Move to An Adventure (book)

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Moberly and Jourdain's book An Adventure is historically notable book primarily known as an example of early 20th century mysticism. However, the present article presents this topic as an "incident" written in the context of a "paranormal incident/unsolved mystery" with a heavy Fortean spin. It's clear the anonymous book and its claims came first, the paranormal fringe context came much later. I've already copyedited the lead to reflect this. Suggest moving the article to a new title: An Adventure (book) and rework it as a book article discussing An Adventure in its proper literary context. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't support it. The affair is better known by the names of the protagonists. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC).Reply
  • Support. The story should be discussed in context of the book, not the other way around. It certainly needs to be stripped of anything that states or implies that their claims are factual. - Location (talk) 00:40, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Given that our most reliable sources have thoroughly debunked the supernatural claims and conclude that the story was a literary fantasy, it's surprising that our article takes the women's tale at face value and even presents the supernatural explanation as equal to skeptical ones. A book article is more appropriate and encyclopedic than the present misguided "paranormal incident" format. Rather than a section consisting of "Some explanations" as if it were a UFO sighting, a "Reception" section would better cover response to this book, e.g. some felt it articulated a form of mysticism, others thought it was a lesbian Folie à Deux, the Society for Psychical Research speculated it was a hoax, etc. Seriously, this article can be much improved. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I am sure that you have noted that it was I who wrote much of the debunking section of the article and, in particular, introduced the key Philippe Jullian theory to it. It is the duty of Wikipedia to report matters neutrally without taking sides. Wikipedia should state claims and counterclaims without fear or favor, in paranormal subjects as in religion and not color them with the opinions of individual editors Xxanthippe (talk) 04:28, 21 August 2015 (UTC).Reply
Stating that this was an event that actually occurred - rather than stating what someone said occurred - is not neutral and it is taking a side. It colors the subject in manner that leads people to think it is something that really happened. - Location (talk) 06:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
"Wikipedia should state claims and counterclaims without fear or favor, in paranormal subjects"? Maybe that was the prevailing thought in 2008 when this article was GA'd, but community opinion and policy has since evolved with the goal of making Wikipedia a serious reference work. A good essay on the subject is WP:NOTNEUTRAL. - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
Articles on the paranormal tend to be a magnet for cranks, both of a credulist nature and of a skepticist nature and Wikipedia editors have to hold a balance between the sometimes passionately held views of both. Of course the incident occurred! The women went for a walk in the gardens at Versailles and wrote a book about their experience. That was the incident. The article reports their well-known views and offers some commentary from other sources about the experiences that they claimed to have had. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC).Reply
Agree with Xxanthippe. What source claims the book is "primarily known as an example of early 20th century mysticism"? I've only ever come across discussions of the ladies' claims in the context of purported ghost sightings and "time slips", and the book itself was certainly originally presented as a factual account of a supposedly paranormal experience (no matter how impossible that might be in the real world) Liverpres (talk) 04:56, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Are there any objections of raising a formal discussion on this through Wikipedia:Requested moves? - Location (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I object. It will become another time-wasting battleground for a WP:Tag team of fringe cranks like this page has turned into. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC).Reply
We shouldn't avoid making improvements to the article for fear of potential "tag teams of cranks" - they can easily be dealt with as they arise, as one has been already. In addition:
  • A majority of outside sources contained in the the present bibliography identify the topic by the book's name: "An Adventure".
  • A REDIRECT can be set up for those who search Wikipedia using the term "Moberly-Jourdain incident" (as it is referred to exclusively on fringe sites) similar to how Ghosts of Petit Trianon is presently a redirect.
  • Right now, the article title and structure function to describe the topic from a supernatural POV: i.e. (a) the supernatural incident happened ("Moberly-Jourdain INCIDENT"), so (b) after it happened Moberly and Jourdain wrote a an account of the incident ("AFTERMATH"), but (c) some people don't believe the incident ("SOME EXPLANATIONS"). Re-titling and re-structuring the article as An Adventure (book) will help us contextulalize that (a) Moberly and Jourdain wrote a book which they purported to be a true account of a supernatural incident. Much more neutral and much less misleading. A nice "Summary" section can contain a neutral description of the claims contained in the book, and a "Response" section can summarize critical reaction to them. - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC)Reply
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Capitalization

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@Xxanthippe: Syntax has nothing to do with it. Per WP:JOBTITLES, in Wikipedia we do not capitalize "principal". We don't even capitalize "pope" or "king". Please undo your change. Chris the speller yack 14:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Pedantry is misplaced: see dot point three. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC).Reply

"Some" explanations

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Anbody who does not see that that is a bad, bad section title should read WP:WEASEL.

Anybody who does not see that time travel is not an "explanation" - since it just replaces one riddle by another one - should read WP:FRINGE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I agree. It's not clear to me which cited sources are arguing in favor of time slips and ghosts, but those explanations should rightly be characterized as fringe and not given equal credibility with non-fringe views. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
Having researched and written much of the debunking section myself including discovering the Montesquiou explanation, I think the section is fine. The only fringe explanation is that of Moberly and Jourdain's book. All the others are rationalist explanations. This article has long been a battleground between fringe cranks (who know that they are right) and anti-fringe cranks (who know that they are right). A plague on both their houses. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC).Reply
See extensive discussion at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Moberly–Jourdain_incident, resulting in the article being much improved. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

As there is no real agreement as to what the supernatural even is, claiming that explanations that have been offered for this story may be "non-supernatural" is, essentially, original research. If you can find a reliable source which indicates that these critiques are explicitly those which are not supernatural, I would like to see it. The sources I am reading simply say that these are the explanations. Full stop. jps (talk) 13:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

GA icon

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I previously replaced this GA icon that was removed from the article. As this article is currently a GA, I feel that the GA icon should be kept. If there is concerns about whether this article does pass GA or not, then this article could have another Good Article Reassessment. However, I feel that this GA icon shouldn't be removed unless this article is delisted. Thanks! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

The GA icon should be removed because the article has changed vastly since 2008. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:34, 5 January 2020 (UTC).Reply