Talk:Modal jazz

Correction: Dorian <> minor

The article states "Both of these songs were in Dorian mode meaning they were in a minor mode." Actually, Dorian is like minor, but it has a raised sixth note of the scale:

D dorian is D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D. D minor is D,E,F,G,A,B-flat,C,D.

D dorian is played on all white notes of the piano. A minor is played on all white notes on the piano.

Since there is only one note difference between the scales, most of the chords are the same. A normal dorian triad (D-F-A for D dorian) is the same as a minor triad.

You are forgetting the difference between natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor. 82.176.202.214 14:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

All scales and modes based on the minor third interval from the root are considered minor modes. Aelian, dorian, harmonic and melodic minor are all minor modes. 82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Difficulty improvising on standard changes.

Which musicians exactly said they were having difficulty creating original improvisations on standard changes? This statement needs backing up with quotes from the musicians involved.--Light current 01:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Definition of "mode"

I think this article should correct and clarify the definition of "mode". The current article includes this: "Modes are the seven scales used in medieval music which were 'rediscovered' by composers like Claude Debussy and frequently used by 20th century composers."

There are a number of modes which are not based on the WWHWWWH arrangement of the major scale (for example, there are also six other modes of the Melodic Minor scale), and modal jazz is still modal jazz even if it's not based on standard WWHWWWH diatonic modes. There are also a number of modes based on scales of less than or more than seven notes. (For example, pentatonic modes). Any Jazz musician who's improvising on a mode instead of chord changes is playing modally, not just those improvising on modes of the standard western Major scale.

There are a number of types of modal music outside of jazz as well, such as most indian classical ragas, few of which actually use a mode of the major scale as a base.

Well, technically, a mode of a scale is the pitches of that particular scale arranged in a sequential order starting a different root. You can have modes for all of the "natural" scales, like major, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor, as well as modes for the more exotic scales, like the assorted bebop scales, pentatonic scales, etc. Havic5 05:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Modes are an extension of chord theory, not a replacement of it. This article completely misses that distinction and makes this seem like some sort of esoteric divination. Probably due to the massively racist reception that jazz music experienced for so many years, and its subsequent induced stasis, dissection, and reappropriation by mainstream societal institutions (ironically). 67.163.161.226 (talk) 21:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Addition to history section required

This excellent page could be enhanced by expanding on the unique Miles Davis Sextet sessions (that became "Kind of Blue") that recorded modal jazz in 1959 like never before (some of the tracks are used as examples to modal jazz in the following section. It should be noted the role of Bill Evans on this recording and also that he became the leading exponant of this type of music. --Jppigott 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

"All Blues" and "Freddie Freeloader" are not good examples of modal jazz

The article states: "Among the significant compositions of modal jazz were "So What", "Freddie Freeloader," and "All Blues" by Miles Davis and Impressions by John Coltrane. They follow the same AABA song form and were in D Dorian for the A sections and modulated a half step up to E♭ Dorian for the B section."

"So What" and "Impressions" certainly fit this description, but "Freddie Freeloader" and "All Blues" don't, since they both have blues structures, not AABA. It could be argued that they have a modal 'feel', but in terms of the structural and harmonic features of modal jazz as outlined in this article, they don't make a very good example.JTHobbyist 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to above

I agree that "Freddie Freeloader" isn't a good example of modal jazz, "All Blues" is significant though. The part where a normal blues would go to the IV the bass is still playing I, so you could argue that they still play G, just a different mode. It's a brilliant way of taking a blues into modal jazz, so it should be noted as such. Why isn't flamenco sketches in the list? That's the best example on the album together with "So What". --pklinken(noaccount)

I disagree regarding "All Blues". It's a great tune but it does not happen to be a great illustration of modal jazz. The bass I over the IV is nothing more than basso ostinato, people have ben doing this since baroque times. On other recordings of "All Blues" the bass sometimes plays the IV -- in a true modal pice that wouldn't work. kibi 17:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ofcourse playing the IV in the 'IV' part will work, it's a blues. The point i was trying to make is that it is a good illustration of using modal elements in a blues form, which is one of the most important forms in jazz after all. I also dont think it's just a basso ostinato, as the bass plays the root and the seventh of I, also in the IV part, on the strong beats, suggesting more I minor than IV dominant. So im not saying it's a great illustration of modal jazz, but it's significant because it uses modal elements, if you agree, in a blues form. Btw, I just had a peek at my copy of Kind of Blue and in the liner notes Bill Evans writes: ""All Blues" is a 6/8 12-measure blues form that produces its mood through only a few modal changes and Miles Davis' free melodic conception." --pklinken(noaccount)

You need to add "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock. It's another perfect example of modal jazz, while it uses all sus. chords it is build entirely off of the modes for each chord respectivly, althought the mode does change with each chord change. "Feddie Freeloader" and "All Blues" are bad examples of modal jazz, "So What" and "Impressions" are though. --67.173.255.205 03:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

All Blues IS an example of modal jazz, and an understated one at that. Miles wrote it specifically to take modal music and mold it with the blues form. He does this for the first 8 bars of the form, and then for the last four returns to a tertian-chord based harmony. In response to kibi, one, Miles conciously used the musical element of the ostinato as a means of implying modal music, rather than simply another layer underneath chordal harmony. If you listen Bill Evan's comping during the solos for measures 6 and 7, he is voicing G minor 7 chords, indicative of a change of mode, rather than C7 chords. The form is there, but the chord change definitely isn't there. Two, other people's interpretations really "don't count". I know that many people play All Blues as a standard blues-type form, and that's what is (wrongly) notated in the Real Book, but that's not what Miles intended at all. You only have to listen to the original recording to hear the very present elements of modal jazz.Havic5 05:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Theory Section

The article at present states: "Other non-diatonic notes, such as the note Bb, are dissonant within the C ionian mode, so that they are less used in non-modal jazz songs when playing the chord C." This can't be right. The flat seventh is a classic blue note. I don't think it's use is particular to modal jazz. I don't know enough about modal jazz to make this say what was meant though. 98.212.24.141 (talk) 05:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It's a blue note, as you say. As such, it is likely to be used very sparingly in modal jazz, which has diatonicism and form as its only structural properties (rather than, for instance, chord progressions). Thus, one would be unlikely to find it as anything else than a passing tone, if at all.82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The article states that it's "less used in non-modal jazz." Should it say "less used in modal jazz" instead? 71.127.76.235 (talk) 19:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I would say so. 82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:10, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Standards

The old list of modal and post-bop jazz standards was just merged&redirected to (the now fully-referenced) List of jazz standards (per discussion at talk). You may wish to incorporate a small/referenced part of the old/new lists in this article. Just a note. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a style or "genre"

There is no style "modal jazz." "Modal" is just one type of jazz harmony. This is a common misconception that has been spread around. This article needs major revision (or deletion).BassHistory (talk) 09:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Can this be addressed mainly by stripping out the "Music genres" box from the top of this Talk page? I'm thinking the article itself can stand; even the appearance of "Modal jazz" in the Jazz Navbox isn't unreasonable as it features other non-genres (for example Jazz blues). Then there is the whole category tree of musicians and albums under Category:Modal jazz which surely falls if there's consensus that the genre-classification goes. AllyD (talk) 19:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• WP:MTHEORY might be a better WikiProject than Genres. Presumably there's a better infobox for the article, too. That's just to name a couple of changes. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• I suggest that the article title be changed to "Modal improvisation," or possibly "Modal (jazz)" as the phrase "Modal jazz" itself implies style or school of playing. As for the "genre" issue, the usage on Wikipedia is unfortunately the colloquial one (jazz, classical, punk rock) not the academic one (jazz standard, string quartet, EP), but in any case "Modal jazz" is not a "genre" (style, school or genre).
• The lede could begin like this: "Modal" is a term used to describe a manor of improvising and composing in jazz and related styles of music. The word, borrowed from early music theory, was used by Miles Davis to describe techniques used on his landmark recording Kind of Blue, which were loosely inspired by the French Impressionist composers...BassHistory (talk) 05:15, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Disagree, and I have a (highly authoritative) source. Ekkehard Jost, in his 1974 study of post-Hard Bop jazz, names and discusses modal jazz as a style/genre, adopted mostly by John Coltrane and his followers, particularly prominent in the 1960-65 period. Ekkehard Jost, Free Jazz (Graz 1974). Unless anyone can come up with a better source/sources that contradicts mine, I strongly oppose the claim that "there is no style "modal jazz"". There is. 82.176.209.52 (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Acclaimed Miles Davis scholar, and editor for The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, Barry Kernfeld refers to this type of sparse harmonic density as Miles Davis's "vamp style", and opposes use of the term "modal jazz". Miles himself spoke about his "modal thing" and even "modal music", but he never used the term "Modal Jazz", at least in his autobiography. Defining music solely by its harmonic qualities seems to be too Eurocentric of an approach for African American music. Additionally, "vamp style" and Bop harmony were often applied within single compositions, such as the music of the 1960s Jazz Messengers. To clarify, the Messengers were a Hard Bop group, who often used modal harmony in the '60s. The Jazz Messengers were not a "Modal Jazz" group. Likewise, Davis's "second great quintet" (of the 60's) played Avant-Garde jazz, or post-bop. Some of the harmony was modal or vamp-based, while some of the structures were free. Miles's 60s quintet was not a "modal jazz" group, they simply experimented with slow harmonic density and exotic scales, along with many other concepts.BassHistory (talk) 00:11, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, found the source I was looking for. I will make the edits I was talking about.BassHistory (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Examples

This article SCREAMS for musical examples and a more thorough discussion of theory. As it stands now the article is tremendously inadequate. 21:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

reference correct?

I can't find anything the quoted source 4 about "inversion" and it's relation to modal jazz?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.243.216.172 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 2 December 2013‎

It's not mentioned on the linked web page ([1]), it's in the audio itself (i.e. the "Listen Now" link on the webpage). The relevant portion is from 13:50-15:00. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:58, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Having said that, it doesn't really back up the sentence, as written ("This technique became known as 'inverting', and has been referenced as an inspiration for modal jazz") – in absence of some other source, it's WP:SYNTH. It does back up the previous sentence, which did not cite a source. What Ellington actually says about it is that it led to a "modal sound that comes from most of the things Tizol's involved in." I've added the citation for both sentences and re-wrote the sentence in question. (By the way, the original year of the broadcast was 1994, not 1993 as originally cited.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)