Talk:Modruš-Rijeka County

Requested move

Modruš-Rijeka → Modrus-Fiume – previous moves of Hungarian counties to current names were not discussed. Please discuss at Talk:Križevci (former county). -  AjaxSmack  17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The move of the names was discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Administrative_divisions_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary#Naming_issues Since nobody opposed my proposal for move, I moved these names. These counties were part of the autonomous region Croatia-Slavonia where Croatian was official language, thus names of the counties are written in Croatian. PANONIAN (talk) 18:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Croatian kingdom

Theirrulez, I'm starting to think you have a personal grudge against Slavs. All you do on the English Wikipedia are attacks on Croatian history articles. This is not constructive behavior. Here we have you trying to rename a županija of the Croatian kingdom. Theirrulez: the Croatian kingdom (an autonomous kingdom of the Crown of St. Stephen within the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy) used the "Croatian or Serbian language" as official, which was guaranteed by the Nagodba, therefore you are very wrong in assuming that the Croatian name was added afterwards as a "non-historic" name. Remember, this is the year 1918 we are talking about(!). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Stop the thoughts you started, I'm just trying to improve the article.

Ok, I remember that year.. and for demostrating that you are POV not only in your edit but also in your opinion about me =) I want to provide you some informations about the former County of Modrus-Fiume:

It was part of the Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia, but also part of the Kingdom of Hungary. All together were part of the Austro Unngarian Empire.

Further detail: that time official language in the district of Fiume was Italian, and Fiume from the last '700 until 1848 and then from 1867 until the empire collapse was corpus separatum directly attributable to the Hungarian crown.

Moral of the story is false, or at least not correct that there was one official name, Croatian.

So here official names:

1. Hungarian: Modrus-Fiume vármegye
2. Croatian: Modruš-Rijeka-Modruško riječka zupanija
3. Italian: Comitato di Modrussa-Fiume
4. German: Komitat Modrusch-River

All these forms are attested in every single document or publications of the time.

Here for example a map original Hungarian

And a 201.jpg beautiful Hungarian map of Fiume. Theirrulez (talk) 03:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Some sources and informations about the Modrus-Fiume County:

[1], :[2], :[3], :[4]. -- Theirrulez (talk) 03:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Using the Hungarian name in just this one article would create an inconsistency. Albeit, all the other Croatian counties were using the Hungarian names until 2006 when they were moved to Croatian names. So the issue really belongs to a more generic talk page.

Having said that, I don't really see the problem with using the native Croatian version which is just as accurate as the Hungarian version, in the absence of an English or an anglicized name. The title describes a territory that was part of Croatia then and today, there is no ambiguity or dispute (like with the adjacent Corpus separatum (Fiume)). By using the local toponyms, it is easier to locate this on a modern map. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for not agreeing. On modern map there can't be any trace about the former Comitatus of Modrus-Fiume. Anyways English consolidate name is present in every single primary source belonging that period, so not using it seems to be a bit forced historical inaccuracy. - Theirrulez (talk) 13:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Modruš-Rijeka County → Modrus-Fiume County – previous moves of Hungarian counties to current names were not discussed. I'm going to perform the move. Any idea? Theirrulez (talk) 07:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Well you can perform the move, but it will be instantly reverted. Are you even aware that this county has nothing to do with Rijeka? Are you aware that this was all discussed previously? That this is a županija of the Croatian Kingdom? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC) Uncorrect. This is a komitat or warmeyge of Austrian Hungarian Empire. --Theirrulez (talk) 13:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Unbelievable. The ONLY reason Theirrulez wants to push this move is because the Hungarian name happens to include the word "Fiume" - the Italian name for the town, regardless of the fact that the county never even included the town... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

This seems to show perfectly your position about the project, nationalism-affected.. How can you be so mistrustful? The official name of the county wasn't the croatian one. If you perform a google search you can also see which is now the common. Four years ago AjaxSmack also believed the same, look above.--Theirrulez (talk) 13:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you starting with the "innocent user" routine. Perhaos if you did not continuously place Italian flags on top of things for no good reason I would not be so mistrust'full. (mistrustful is better) --Theirrulez (talk) 13:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, here comes Theirrulez with his "official names". Allow me to assure you that "Croatian or Serbian" was official in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, you can find sources in the article. Theirrulez, the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy is a very, very complicated country, I get the feeling you did not do the research. I can also assure you that "Rijeka" is far more common than "Fiume" in English. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah I forgot "Direktor" stands for Komitatdirektor isn't it? You should remeber how complicated were those years. I'm a 21th century reader instead, and I wasn't there that time, but I'm quite sure modern english sources and older english sources call it Modrus-Fiume.. Theirrulez (talk) 13:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

("Direktor" is a Croatian word. Does "Theirrulez" mean "Myrulez"?)

Heh, now the official name suddenly does not matter? :) Are you seriously contesting that the most common name for the city in English is "Rijeka"?

You are here exclusively because the word "Fiume" is involved. If the Hungarian name was "Folyó" you would not give a damn... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Direktor did you read my posts? Are you usually able to understand them? I'm seriuosly stating that Modrus-Fiume is the official and most common name of the county, I never wrote anything about the city of Rijeka.--Theirrulez (talk) 13:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I will be as clear as I can: the official name of this county is Modrus-Rijeka.

You are here exclusively because the word "Fiume" is involved. If the Hungarian name was "Folyó" you would not give a damn... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you provide proof of the officiality of Modrus-Rijeka name? So the move will not performed. --Theirrulez (talk) 13:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't you just say so in the first place? Here's, for example, a royal state document of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia from 1910 [5], its the population census listing all županijas. One can easily verify that Croatian (also termed "Croatian or Serbian") was indeed official in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Frankly, Theirrulez, I can't believe you would take this here. Hungarian? For a while I thought we might develop a viable working relationship. Theirrulez, all Croatian županijas use the official name. Not only that, but these are the most common English toponyms. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

C'mon.. Google books, only English sources:

"Modrus-Rijeka" = 422 hits

"Modrus-Fiume" = more than 2,900 hits - Let's speak about English.. Theirrulez (talk) 14:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"C'mon"? Try again. 188 hits for "Modrus-Fiume". You state above that those are "only English sources" [6]. That was an outright lie, an obviously deliberate o.uk/books?id=naJWLXGkb9IC&pg=PA345&dq=%22Modrus-Fiume%22&lr=lang_en&as_brr=0&client=firefox-a&cd=29#v=onepage&q=%22Modrus-Fiume%22&f=false], [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5attempt at deception.

As I said, per consensus:

• This is the official name of the county. (Here is User:Theirrulez saying that the official name had to be followed [7].) You are indiscriminately changing your position during the same discussion within the space of several minutes, simply to place the Italian name in the article. Why did you do so?
• This is the most common English name. Translated from any language, the English language toponyms for this county are "Modrus-Rijeka".

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

More and more interesting (fun).. I tried again

for "Modrus-Fiume" 188 hits

for "Modrus-Rijeka" 62 hits

C'mon..why dont'use historical and most common English form? [8], [9] Why we have to croatize the county name? Any answer? --Theirrulez (talk) 14:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

That's just it - because its not historical, and because its not English. Rijeka in English is "Rijeka", and the current name was historical and official [10].

• This is the official name of the county. [11]
  • here is User:Theirrulez saying that the official name had to be followed.
  • here is User:Theirrulez saying that I should "provide proof of the officiality of Modrus-Rijeka name, so the move will not performed"

You are indiscriminately changing your position during the same discussion within the space of several minutes, simply to place the Italian name in the article. Why? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are so confused. Rijeka is a modern town. Modrus-Fiume is a former subdivision of Austrian Hungarian Empire. English usage shown above. It will be very appreciated if you will not start a move warring just in order to push your own language name in an English encyclopedia, you agree? Theirrulez (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry too. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh my! more and more surprising! I like this discussion! But User:Direktor, you know that cancelling reliable sources in other user comment [12] it's not fair? Not at all.. Why did you do that? For hiding the truth? I'm gonna restore the source cancelled.. Theirrulez (talk) 15:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC) Here again the all three sources: [13], [14], [15]. The cancelled one was the second from Encyclopedia Britannica. Theirrulez (talk) 15:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I like it too. A blind user can see that was a copy-paste accident... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It was a copy-paste accident of course.. but why copy-pasting you cut exactly the second source in my post? Do you have a pov mouse leading your hand? =) Theirrulez (talk) 15:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)