Talk:Mogadishu/Archive 2

Square kilometers of Mogadishu

How many square kilometers does the local council cover? I see a map down the city's page that seems to show statistical divisions, which gets me thinking that even though only recently taken back under control, the local councils borders are clearly defined. I'd like to be able to put the city's size in the infobox, and perhaps expanded upon the information in the government section concerning its municipal governance. --Criticalthinker (talk) 03:04, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what the sq km is, but the city is coextensive with the Banaadir region, which itself is divided into 14 districts. Middayexpress (talk) 11:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a piece of advice, but that map can be confusing. I see now that the tiny red dot is the region, but since it says red, some might confuse this to mean the entire area in light red is the region. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This one should perhaps work better. Middayexpress (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Historical maps and photographs

For those interested, I have accumulated a collection of historial (i.e pre 1991) photographs and maps of Mogadishu here http://mogadishuimages.wordpress.com/ called "Mogadishu: Images from the Past"Rckjdavies (talk) 14:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

hamar

the original name of the city is hamar it wasnt just popularly known as hamar it is the original name of the city. the name mogadishu is from the harari word moka meaning hot and dishi meaning land..mogadishu was adopted according to tradition by ali garad around the time of 16th century who entered hamar from harar. Baboon43 (talk) 13:34, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

The name is derived from the Persian language, not from Harari, so far I can tell. And Mogadishu was founded far in the 9th century, when Arab and Persian immigrant intermingled with the Somalis in the Banaadir highlands. The other possible meaning is a Somali mispronucation from the Swahilli word "mwyu wa", last northern city. Perhaps the two words(moka and 'moga'dishu) are just simular, as these two languages are distantly related and so there is no other special connection between moka and Mogadishu. Runehelmet (talk) 16:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

This is not something i put together this is history taught in harar its amazing that the history of a region has been neglected and not mentioned..i believe this is due to harar being in ethiopia being isolated from regions like somalia which it influenced greatly in the past..the rulers of harar (adalites) ruled most parts of present day ethiopia and somalia this is fact which is why Hargeisa is known as little harar. by the way i didnt say mogadishu was founded in the 16th century so i suggest you read my comments properly.

* hamar is the original name of mogadishu most likely named after gerad hamar gale see [1]

* mogadishu is a name adopted by an adal ruler garad ali who left harar around the time of Nur ibn Mujahid the city was called mogadishi literally hot ground) because of how hot it was and subsequently over time it became the adopted name.. according to harari tradition NOT something i made up because i thought it was similar to harari language because anything can be similar. Baboon43 (talk) 17:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Runehelmet: Somali (Afro-Asiatic) and Swahili (Niger-Congo) are not at all related languages. The Swahili influence in Mogadishu also dates from a much later period, when the Sultan of Zanzibar held sway in the 19th century (see History). The Persian presence is much older and there are tomb inscriptions to show for it. Also note that Mogadishu is the likely Sarapion of antiquity.

Baboon43: Let's not get carried away. Garad Ali lived during the Adalite period. Mogadishu was already referred to as such many centuries prior by various historic authors, such as Yaqut. Middayexpress (talk) 21:04, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I meant with the related languages; Harari and Somali. I took the Swahilli word from here;"Others consider it a Somali mispronunciation of the Swahili “mwyu wa” (last northern city), raising the possibility of its being the northernmost of the chain of Swahili city-states on the East African coast"-Somalia a Country Study. Just gave an other proposal, but not accepted in the mainstream studies of Somalia.

@Baboon: If you are sure that it's a Harari tradition, I'm sure you can give plenty of citations to support your statement. Runehelmet (talk) 13:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I see. That's an incorrect etymology, though, because the Swahili influence doesn't trace back that far. For example, Mogadishu was already referred to as such by Marco Polo in the 1200s. He actually mistook Madagascar for it, which is where that island's name comes from. Middayexpress (talk) 15:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

i did give citations already that hargeisa means little harar & there's books on the origin of the word mogadishu but i wont take the time to cite them here becuz its not available online but you can do your own research and probably obtain sources if you wish..just needed to tell editors on the talk page that somalia was ruled by harar seeing that they are unaware of that. Baboon43 (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

We are discussing about Mogadishu, but regarding to Hargeisa;"Little is known about Hargeisa (literally 'the place where hide is sold') prior to the late 19th century."-Somaliland: With Addis Ababa & Eastern Ethiopia. Actually I'm not obligated to search on my own, as you hold the burden of evidence. Runehelmet (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

only one source says that. The mainstream view is that it is "little harar" you can simply google more hits on "little harar"..little is known about somalia and ethiopia for that matter because academics have not researched the area..its time to ask why these places are named that but researchers are revealing that harla tribe were in the somali region & they spoke another language. im not obligated for burden because im not inserting any content so its a simple discussion. Baboon43 (talk) 14:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I was refering to this case, not Hargeisa. Runehelmet (talk) 14:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

yea i get it but im not inserting content for mogadishu article just nudging editors. Baboon43 (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The etymology of the place-name Hargeisa is off-topic here. Encyclopedia Aethiopica also suggests that it's Harar as-sagir that means "Harar the little", not Hargeisa itself. It just proposes that Hargeisa may have been derived from Harar as-sagir, though that's not the traditional etymology (see above for that). There is also no linguistic evidence on what language the Harla may have spoken since their language is extinct, with no written records left of it. There's only analysis on other, modern languages that may be remnants of Harla, in addition to plenty of physical evidence of actual Harla burials, all of which suggest that they were likely Cushitic speakers. But I'm sure you already know that by now. In future, please try and discuss material in the discussion areas actually allotted for them. Let me also save you some time and assert that the place-name Mogadishu has absolutely nothing to do with Harar. Middayexpress (talk) 15:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

well we will see what the academics have to say aside from that you simply telling me mogadishu name has nothing to do with harar is simply not helping. Baboon43 (talk) 16:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Hamar before Xamar

seeing this is wikipedia english version should not Hamar come before Xamar? "Hamar (Xamar) is the name of the city and belongs to the Reer Hamar (The People of Hamar) and the first non-Reer Hamar came to the town only in the XVIII century and as the historian Enrico Cerulli wrote"- Somalia: a nation driven to despair : a case of leadership failure -P.236 Baboon43 (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The local spelling is with an X. "Hamar" is of course the English transliteration, but it implies a quite different pronunciation. That is, "H" exists as a separate letter and sound in the Somali alphabet; it represents a non-guttural "H" sound. On the other hand, "X" denotes a guttural "H" sound. The latter is the correct pronunciation in this instance. By the way, Xamar wasn't exactly founded recently, as it's the likely ancient port of Sarapion mentioned by Ptolemy in his Geographia. Middayexpress (talk) 17:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

english readers cant read xamar and also xamar is still in the article anyway..local spelling of beijing is 北京 ..do you see beijing used in cantonese script before the english one? ofcourse not because as i said this is wikipedia english Baboon43 (talk) 03:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Why do you make from anything such a big deal? And in contrary to Manderin, Somali uses the Latin script. By the way, this 'issue' is not violating the editing protocol of Wikipedia. Runehelmet (talk) 19:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

me or you? do you want to confuse readers? im well aware somali uses latin &, english also happens to use the same script but under wikipedia english guidelines, articles must be translated into english. its like putting muqdisho ahead of mogadishu. Baboon43 (talk) 03:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

This isn't confusing the readers. If it was it would be changed years ago, but it seems that it is only bothering you, so yes, you are making it a big deal. Yes, it is unwise to "put muqdisho ahead of mogadishu", but Xamar, is a nickname, not the city's official name. Runehelmet (talk) 13:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

It would make more sense to put the actual pronounciation of the city's nickname first (i.e. with an "X" representing a guttural "H" sound). But this is English Wikipedia, so an English transliteration may come first; not sure though. Middayexpress (talk) 16:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

There's not much editors on east african pages on wikipedia that is why nobody cared to bring it up. atleast im active and trying to improve this page. If you can differentiate on the page that one is english the other is somali for readers then that could solve this issue even if xamar comes first as you insist should be done Baboon43 (talk)

Good point. I've tried using the language template; let me know if it works. Middayexpress (talk) 16:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

brothers rule??

article missing the mention of possible sibling rule of harar and mogadishu [2] Baboon43 (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe the siblings are touched on in the linked Geledi Sultanate. Luling wrote a book on the kingdom a few years ago. Middayexpress (talk) 17:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Ibn Battuta's stay in Mogadishu

I added a brief paragraph conferring a bit more detail about Battuta's stay in Mogadishu. The previous one seemed to say nothing more apart from "he went there". Let me know what you guys think. Freddyalfonsoboulton —Preceding undated comment added 19:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Ibn Battuta's stay in Mogadishu is already described, albeit briefly. It also wasn't a Swahili city. The Sultan that Battuta encountered, one Abu Bakr ibn Sayx 'Umar, was a Somali originally from the northern Barbara region, who spoke the local Somali dialect (Mogadishan) and Arabic fluently [3] [4]. He was part of the Muzaffar Dynasty, which ruled the Sultanate of Mogadishu. Middayexpress (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

References

The references need format clean-up. I'm working on them. --Rosiestep (talk) 06:03, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the formatting. Middayexpress (talk) 14:06, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

@Middayexpress Regarding the "Adam, p. 226" reference added during this edit, can you figure out which resource you might have been looking at? I was thinking maybe it was the Adam Lowther book but I can't access p. 226 so didn't want to assume. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:03, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

It was Hussein Mohamed Adam's Mending Rips in the Sky (1997). I've fixed it. Middayexpress (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Midday. I'm not sure if atma-o-jibon.org (in Italian) is a RS; can someone else take a look at it? --Rosiestep (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

 Done Middayexpress (talk) 21:53, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

GA check

I am working my way through the Good articles listed at Places; having a quick look to see if they still meet the Good article criteria. I have landed on this article. After I've had a quick look, I'll leave a note here indicating if I have concerns or not.

In general, I see the process as this: 1) Give the article a quick look to see if there are obvious issues: maintenance tags, unsourced sections, excessive media, etc, resolving any minor issues as I do so; 2) If I have concerns, open a GAR to see how serious those concerns are, resolving them myself if they are not serious; 3) If during the GAR I feel that there is significant work to be done (more than I can or am willing to do myself), I will put the GAR on hold and notify the main contributors.

My aim and intention is to keep the article listed - I would rather the article was improved and kept listed than the article is delisted. Where a delisting seems likely due to the amount or nature of work needed being greater than I am able or willing to do alone, and the main contributors are unavailable or unable for whatever reason to do the work, then appropriate WikiProjects will be notified at least seven days before a delisting would take place. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I am no longer doing the GA checks so I will archive this. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)