Talk:Monaco/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

AS Monaco FC

Perhaps there should be an internal link to AS Monaco FC. I began writing a stub.

Wahyd

There is one already.

Rainier succeeded by Albert

As of today, I think Albert has succeeded Rainier due to his health problems -- this should be updated.

He will succeed when Rainier III abdicates or, worse, dies. At this point he will become Albert II of Monaco.

Population

The population figure given in the article synopsis seems to differ quite substancially from the one given in the table down the right hand side User:Liam_fee

EVER Monaco

EVER = Ecological Vehicles Energy Renewable

2006 was the EVER Monaco from March 30th to April 2nd. A very good converence and show about ecological vehciles

I wrote a big article about it on

• EVER Moaco general and special vehicles
• EVER Moaco cars
• EVER Moaco bicyles and scooters

I think best would be to write an article in Wikipedia about the EVER and at "See also" link from Monaco to EVER Monaco

But as a beginner, I know only how to edit an existing article, but not how to create a new one with all the necessary links.

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.
As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things:

• whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
• which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.

Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.
There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 19 Feb2007 00:45 (UTC)

Two map optional display

Hello Monaco!!! I have something that may interest contributers for this page. In a nut shell, it allows the option to display two maps in your info box, one could be a close up of Monaco, and another would be Monaco in a wider European or EU context. This is an example that was being discussed on Scotland's talk page (though I think they have rejected a two map option). Prior to now no one knew that you could have two maps displayed in the info box. For 'smallish' counties the benifits are easy to graps, an up-close view of the country, and a wider contextual visualisation of the country. Dydd da!!

PS: This is an example from the Scotland page, please do not be offended that I display the Scotland info box here. It is only ment as an example.

Scotland  (English / Scots) Alba  (Gaelic)
Flag Royal Coat of Arms
Motto: [Nemo me impune lacessit] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)  (Latin) "No one provokes me with impunity" "Cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh"   (Scottish Gaelic) '"Wha daur meddle wi me?"'  (Scots)1
Anthem: (Multiple unofficial anthems)
Location of Monaco/Archive 1 (orange) in the United Kingdom (camel)
Location of Monaco/Archive 1 (orange) in the European Union (camel)
Capital	Edinburgh 55°57′N 3°12′W
Largest city	Glasgow
Official languages	English
Recognised regional languages	Gaelic, Scots1
Demonym(s)	Scot, Scots and Scottish²
Government	Constitutional monarchy
ISO 3166 code	GB-SCT

History section is bizarre

There are some strange claims in the history section...

1. According to an opium induced myth, Hercules passed through the Monaco area

2. François Grimaldi (Milaza) painted the fortress protecting the famous Rock of Monaco while dressed as a Franciscan monk (monaco in Italian)

3. From 1793 to 1814, Monaco was under French control. The Congress of Vienna designated Monaco as a protectorate of the Kingdom of Sardinia from 1815 until 1860 when the Treaty of Turin ceded to France the porcelain figurines of Nizza and Savoy. During this time there was merriment in the towns of Menton and Roquebrune, which declared the date Figurine Day, hoping for annexation by Sardinia. The partying continued until the ruling prince wept before the people, begging for peace.He gave up his claim to the two towns (some 95% of the country) to France in return for one night with the royal Prussian maids. This transfer and Monaco's sovereignty was recognised by the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 1861.

I don't know a lot about the history of Monaco, but none of this is mentioned in the History of Monaco article. Furthermore I think Opium was only introduced to Europe after 1700.

Can someone with more knowledge than me clean this up please? --Dilaudid 12:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

History, also here above needs more details, like peaces of a chapter incompleteness is unnice: who/what is 'partying' (political parties, the prince, etc.) - background to 'maids' please, were no monegascan brides(also nice) to harvest?! The problem is not explained and detail-pauverty. A map with these 2 cities please or explain the unknown names for many (i am in Holland f.ex. 'Overvecht' or 'Zuilen' almost none knows abroad; parts in Utrecht Municip.); were and are they (still) (then and now) in Monaco or in France/Italy?? Why he painted or was in (deep)sorrow for or hiding in Munksdress? Mistake in Square Kilometer (voilà arithmatics!): Another thing: 1,9xx,xxx m2 = ab.2000km2(!)= never 2 square km2 but larger. When I see photo.. [2000m x 1000m = 2,000,000 m2 divided by 1000 = 2000 km2 or square kilometers about. A km=1000 meters at which 5 story buildings at both sides can stand, i read for 173? blocks, so impossible at "2 km2= 2 sq.km = 100m Length x 20m Broad (=2000m2 =2km2). How can 35000 live on 100m by 20m what is 1,9 km2 or almost two square km (=square km). Language: Why a 'shame' for mon'egascan tongue for 1st Language, why french which is no maritallanguage here, do we speak spanish in Holland here for 'dutch' is 'haha..'?? If blownup to choose elitair tongues instead of the one God beloved to choose for your own in all its dynamics, why than not English as worldtongue. Best is Monegasc nr1, english/french nr2, aquitan-french and italian nr3? But who am i of course. Why so less information on 'Roman time and later' instead close 12th century and its possessors there and etnical development, are all sardin-italians or mixed with mores partial? About Carolin her mother princes Gratia(engl.Grace) and Father and on this lacking accident; why omitting; it had an impact and belong to history and caused what Monaco was, became(beautiful) after this Marriage, after her pass-away. When kids grown up with only a father it often became malestyle ladies, so halfman women, when by a mom alone (both a big part of youthlife) boys often can get too 'wify' as ladishboys, not to say it is her alike, although i see elements of 'ofcourse-ness'(logica-lity). In minority elements of oppositsex can make attractive and strong, but if in disbalance it is a pity 'Course'. Faithfulness, gentlewifely, (faith-)purity are nowadays scarce by Vogues/Windwaves of (Seagul-/Ouragan-?)Time.. Fine change is that Stephany and Caroline are in more restfulwaters and more Ladylike instead of it was few times before; meaning as no negative or critism but just in favour. In whose life no rain or loudy-seaguls came? Hapily a Branch and Tree of fruit can florish up! weroner78@gmail.com.

 p.s. instead of "bizarre" more polite or 'unimpur' is (better) next word: 'moved extraordinairy', reflecting more the context you wrote.

This Text is partly for Moderator of Maintext and partly (gentle) to You. Thanks by the way for your good contribution. Mr Weroner(Holland) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.30.39 (talk) 19:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you know what a square km is? 1 square km is 1000 m by 1000 m, that's a million square m, not a thousand! HkCaGu (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Poor phrasing or vandalism?"

"Monaco has been ruled by the House of Grimaldi since 1297, when François Grimaldi (aka: Malizia) seized the fortress protecting the famous Rock of Monaco while dressed up as a Franciscan monk (monaco in Italian); of Nizza and Savoy. During this time there was unrest in the towns of Menton and Roquebrune 1848 which declared independence, hoping for annexation by Sardinia."

It doesn't make sense. It jumps from 1297 to 1848. It seems there's something missing. Am i wrong?

195.7.3.37 11:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Geo Atreides.

I have to agree. It's as if someone has deleted a large chunk of the history section. I'm not qualified to fill it back in but would urge sommebody to correct this error.

Just following up on this -- I noticed that the nickname of François Grimaldi (il Maliza) seems to have at least 3 different interpretations depending on whether I am looking at the article, an illustration, or a link pointing to his personal entry. Which on is right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejonesboston (talk • contribs) 21:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Mondain?

"Affluent Monaco is the most mondain of the European microstates." Is "mondain" a word?--Mangcha 23:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's French for 'worldly'.

Error page

There's some kind of error on the Monaco page that causes my browser to immediately crash as soon as I go to that page. My browser is Opera 8, running under Windows XP SP2. It works fine under IE6, which is what I'm using nowBlaise 18:12, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Capital

According to the infobox the capital of the principality is Monaco. Is it like.. the entirety of the principality is serving as the capital? — Instantnood 11:04 Mar 3 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is true : As Monaco is really a tiny country, the borders of the country and the city are the same. — Georges Mar 4 2005 09:01:43 UTC

Thanks. — Instantnood 06:54 Mar 9 2005 (UTC)

Seems like, instead of the entirety of the principality, Monaco-Ville is the official capital. — Instantnood 14:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Please cite a source other than Wikipedia pages. From what I found here [1]: "The Principality has only one commune, Monaco, whose limits are the same as those of the state." Commune means city. To me, the territory defines its own capital city, so there's no basis on designating Monaco-Ville as Monaco's capital, unless Monaco's government chooses to do so. Same for Hong Kong and Central and Western District. Chanheigeorge 19:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case, the recent edit that states Monaco is a city state and so is its own capital should be removed. It also sits at odds with the quote on Monte Carlo which says "Monte Carlo is the wealthiest of Monaco's four quarters, sometimes erroneously believed to be the country's capital, even though there formally is none"Damiancorrigan 09:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, most likely Monaco's government does not officially define "Monaco's capital (city)" (no need for a city-state to define one), and we should probably put "none" there. However, if you define "capital" as the city where the seat of government is located, then it's... Monaco. Many encyclopedic sources probably use this definition [2] [3]. The four quarters are not adminstrative divisions, but merely areas, so you cannot say one district (Monaco-Ville or Monte Carlo) is the capital. Chanheigeorge 22:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Your argument seems to rest on the 'city-state' notion. Is that an official term? Of course I've heard it before, but I see it as a description rather than a technical term. It just seems a little pedantic to call Monaco a capital city just by saying "it is a city state, therefore it is a capital city". Capital cities rule over something more than itself, Monaco does not, so it is not a capital. That's like calling me a master of the house when I live alone - if I am master over no one but myself, I'm not a master! (By the way, I don't live alone, it was just an example)Damiancorrigan 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, but if you live alone, and somebody wants to talk to the "head of the household", then it would be you, right? Even though the household is just you, and you're the head of "you and nobody else".... I'm just saying that if we really want to assign one city as the "capital of Monaco" (instead of none), it'd be definitely be Monaco. Chanheigeorge 22:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It is probably not a stretch to suppose that the capital of Monaco is Monaco-Ville. Since ville=city in French, it may be taken to suppose that Monaco-Ville is a city in Monaco (the state) where the administration/government is located. Similarly, the capital of San Marino is the "City of San Marino" and the capital of Luxembourg is always written as Luxembourg(city). I for one am in favor of the claim that Monaco-Ville and not just Monaco is the capital, unless official Monegasque documentary evidence states otherwise.Avman89 (talk) 07:34, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if we wanted to assign one city as the capital of Monaco. But we don't. You've already agreed we 'probably should put "none" there'. So it shouldn't be in the list of capital cities. Damiancorrigan 22:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The best way to resolve this would be to know what is Monaco's government's official position on this, but I've yet to find a reliable source. Chanheigeorge 22:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

In what way is the municipality, which corresponds to the entirety of the principality, considered the capital, instead of the quartier of Monaco-Ville? — Instantnood 19:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion this whole conversation is verging on extreme pedantry. It was fine as it was, saying Monaco had no capital. It was just Chan that decided to follow the logic - Monaco is a city --> it rules itself --> it is a capital city. But it really isn't, really, is it? Think about it. Damiancorrigan 20:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

As long as Wikipedia is an encyclopædia, these are the things we've gotta deal with. If the principality defines the entirety of itself as the city, and defines this city as the capital, then user:Chanheigeorge's logic is correct. I'm in fact more interested to know why some refer the quartier of Monaco-Ville as the capital of the principality. — Instantnood 21:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Chan himself said this: "Yes, most likely Monaco's government does not officially define "Monaco's capital (city)" (no need for a city-state to define one), and we should probably put "none", so the issue was basically raised for no reason! Damiancorrigan 22:02, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what we're debating at this point, but I'll just recap what I know:

1. I've yet to see an official government position of what Monaco's capital is, whether is the whole city of Monaco, Monaco-Ville or any other quartier, or just none. The sentence I wrote "Yes, most likely Monaco's government does not officially define "Monaco's capital (city)" (no need for a city-state to define one)" is merely an educated guess.
2. There are encyclopedic sources that says Monaco's capital is Monaco [4] [5], but I've yet to read a source (other than Wikipedia pages) which says Monaco's capital is Monaco-Ville. I remember hearing the claim that Monaco's capital is Monte-Carlo (not sure where), but it seems to be more of a misconception due to the fame of Monte Carlo.
3. From Monaco's webpage [6]: "The Principality has only one commune, Monaco, whose limits are the same as those of the state. Monaco is divided into five areas...." Commune means city. So if we define the "capital" as the city where the seat of government is located, Monaco fits the description. The "quartiers" are just areas which are not adminstrative divisions (e.g., there is no government of Monaco-Ville).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chanheigeorge (talk • contribs) 23:37, April 30, 2006 (UTC).

Neither CIA Factbook nor BBC website could be described as 'encyclopedias' - and they are both notoriously inaccurate. The BBC page you list hyphenates Monte Carlo, for a start. My view is that:

1. We have no official recognition that Monaco is the capital of Monaco.
2. It is not common parlance to say that Monaco is the capital of Monaco.

In the absence of official recognition or recognition by the general public, I think it should be removed. Damiancorrigan 13:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

For the field of capital, should we put it like this way? (The field for the most populated portion can probably stay.) — Instantnood 19:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I support "n/a" with footnotes, similar to the Singapore case. Chanheigeorge 20:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ignore my previous comment. There is a serious battle currently waged at Talk:Singapore#City about what is officially a "city" and what is not. Anyway, Monaco does define itself as a city. Chanheigeorge 23:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I second copying Singapore, regardless of the debate on the Talk page. Damiancorrigan 00:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

... which has now been revereted to Singapore's capital is Singapore. Anyway.... Chanheigeorge 00:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

(response to user:Damiancorrigan's comment at 00:08, May 2) Either n/a or – (a dash) will do. — Instantnood 21:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Many atlases also put Monaco as Monaco's capital. I'm not saying it's officially correct, but seems to be some "acceptable practice". Chanheigeorge 00:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If it has none, and nowhere is considered by the public to be, why don't we leave the field blank? We should not provide inaccurate and untrue information. — Instantnood 21:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The question should be "Where is the government of Monaco run?" Paploo 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Monaco is really, really tiny. To help myself visualise it, I put the map of Monaco on top of a map of Helsinki, to scale. Monaco ended up only covering the city's commercial centre (ydinkeskusta). It doesn't even stretch to Töölö in the west or Katajanokka in the east, and only goes as far as Kallio in the north. I routinely walk longer distances than Monaco's entire diameter. I would upload the picture but as it's a snapshot of Google Maps, I fear I might infringe copyright. JIP | Talk 16:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Rainier

Is it true that Rainier is no longer the Prince?

He is still the reigning Prince of Monaco; however, due to his incapacity, his son Prince Albert, Marquis of Baux is serving as his regent. — Dan | Talk 03:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Prince Rainier died on April 6, 2005. His son is now Albert II of Monaco.

Towns In Monaco

In every book I've read about Monaco I've seen Monaco-Ville listed as the capital. In a few books I've seen towns called Saint Roman and Larvotto Terano, both located northeast on Monte Carlo. I was wondering if these are still around, or have they been incorperated in Monte Carlo, or something else? Please answer. 3 April 2005

The book you've read MUST be updated ! Sait Roman and Larvotto are not towns : Monaco is a unique town. Monaco is so small that it is only divided in sections or quarters (quartiers). And no, Monte Carlo has not incorporated other quaters.

I don't think thats true, I too have read that Monacoville is the capital of Monaco.

No : Monaco Ville is an other (tiny) part of Monaco. This part is nicknamed "Le Rocher" ("The Rock"). This is the hill that you can see on the photo "View on Monacoville". Iznogoud 13:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Monaco is divided into quartiers; or Neighbourhoods. A Neighbourhood cannot be a capital. Although the princes residency and the governmental buildings lie in Monacoville, it is not a capital. The capital of Monaco is Monaco.

In my view, the term "capital" is meaningless for Monaco as it is so small (4km by 300m in some places). If there were to be a capital it would either be Monte Carlo or Monaco Ville. Monte Carlo because it is the central location and hub of activity of the principality. Monaco Ville because that is where the Palace, the Cathedral, and most of the State buildings reside. Monaco Ville is also the historic origin (old city) of Monaco. However, since Monaco, the country, is smaller than most small cities it cannot have a capital any more than Manhasset can.

Incidentally I removed the reference to Larvotto Terano and replaced it with Larvotto - Tenao. I might be wrong, but I've never heard of "Terano" although I've lived here for thirty years and nor has anyone I know. The Tenao, on the other hand, is an area in Monaco, which is near the Larvotto and Saint Roman.

Why Prince and not King?

Could someone add to the page an explanation of why the ruler is a Prince and not a full King? Thank you.

The reason the there is no king of Monaco is that it is not a kingdom. Monaco is a principality. There are only 2 of there places left in the world.

For the same reason the kings aren't emperors... They just simpley aren't.

Wales is also a principality. Which is why Queen Elizabeth's son is the Prince of Wales but there is no King or Queen of Wales.

... That's a no-answer answer. A principality is the area ruled by a prince, and a kingdom is the area ruled by a king. But if Queen Elizabeth were to die tomorrow, Prince Charles would inherit the throne and become king. Why didn't Ranier become king when his predecessor died? And that bit about only 2 principalities is a bunch of bushwa. I can think of at least five: Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, Asturias, and Wales. This kind of crap is why Wikipedia has such a reputation for being untrustworthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.142.254 (talk) 09:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Really its simply historic precident set by former rulers. The ruler of Monaco could declare himself "King", if he so chose and the people accepted that. But in the wider European... and world... view the geographic extent of his realm is so tiny as to make that leap from prince to king would be seen as aggrandizement on the most fancyful scale. There have been historically independent or near independent Counties (realms ruled by a Count) Duchies (realms ruled by a Duke), Great Duchies, Principalities, Grand Principalities. One realms prince may be another realms Grand Duke or Duke. One realm's king may be another realm's prince or even emperor. Its realitive, and takes into account historic precident of the rulers as well as what other nations are willing to aknowladge that head of state as.♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 04:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Geography challenge

I would like to challenge the section that provides detail about the geography of Monaco. It is correct in stating Monaco being divided into quartiers or quarters. However, the only ones I can find are Fontvielle, Monaco-Ville, La Condamine, Monte Carlo, Saint Roman, and Moneghetti. Rock of Monaco is listed as a quartier, but the Rock of Monaco page states that it is merely where Monaco-Ville is located. Larvotto-Tenao is mentioned, but several maps I have found do not have Larvotto as a quartier (only the beach area is mentioned). Cap d'Ail is mentioned, but in actuality is a French town that borders Monaco to the West.

Also, this discrepancy is noticed further when the first page of this article states that Monaco has SEVEN quartiers (and lists more), and the Rock of Monaco page states that Monaco has FIVE quartiers. I have found that there are probably six quartiers. To further confuse this, the official Goverment of Monaco website doesn't show the quartiers as having ANY administrative function. The Census reports have Monaco broken down into four quartiers (rightfully so) as only Monte Carlo, La Condamine, Monaco-Ville, and Fontvielle.

This hints that the quartiers, per se, are merely descriptive names, not administrative divisions. Can anyone help clear this up, especially anyone from Monaco proper?

Thank you! Rarelibra 15:30 19JAN2006

Response to quartier mix up.

I agree that there are some inaccuracies here. As stated above (forgot to sign, sorry) I edited Larvotto-Terano to Larvotto-Tenao, as I took it to be the likely intention of the original author. AFAIK there is no "Terano" in Monaco. Because of automatically generated copies of Wikipedia entries proliferating on the internet, however, Larvotto-Terano can now be found on many websites.

1. Tenao. I don't know of a quartier named Larvotto-Tenao, but there is definitely a minor residential quartier called Tenao, (I used to live there). Not that many people are aware of it but it does appear on the tourist map of Monaco, albeit in smaller text than the other quartiers. Like most of Monaco it borders France and is in the North East corner. It centers around the Boulevard du Tenao, which is a road.

2. Larvotto. South of the Tenao, bordering the sea is the Larvotto area. It is the name of the large beach, a Monaco municipal bus terminus, and a quartier.

3. Saint-Roman is a quartier between the Tenao and the Larvotto and covers an area of France as well as Monaco. On the map distributed by the Tourist Office it lies in France. But it is a terminus for one Monaco municipal bus line. The Monte Carlo Country Club, which holds the Monte Carlo Tennis Masters, is in Saint-Roman - but is in France, despite it's name.

4. Monte-Carlo is the most well known quartier, often called the capital of Monaco (although that's for another discussion). It comprises landmarks such as the Casino, Hotel de Paris, Hotel Hermitage, Cafe de Paris, Les Boulingrins and the smart area of Monaco. it is also known as le Carré d'Or (the Golden Square). However, since Monaco is so small, Monte Carlo is often used synonymously with Monaco, especially with people not familiar with the region. It is a hill (hence Monte), so is quite easy to pinpoint geographically. It is in the centre of Monaco.

5. Monaco-Ville is an even better defined quartier as it is isolated on "the Rock", which has steep walls. It could also be the capital of Monaco. It contains the Palace, Cathedral, Oceanographic Museum and other official buildings. It is the old town. Le Rocher (the Rock) is its familiar name to locals, though I've never seen "the Rock" written on a map or in an address. It's always written as Monaco Ville. It's also a bus terminus. I think the expression in English "the Rock of Monaco" is incorrect and is not used (unlike "the Rock of Gibraltar", which is used). It should just be "the Rock". In French, one hears mostly "Le Rocher", but also "le Rocher de Monaco".

6. Fontvieille (note spelling) is also a well defined quartier. It is the new area of reclaimed land to the south west of Monaco. It contains the port of Fontvieille, the stadium, the shopping centre and heliport. It is also a bus terminus.

7. (La) Condamine is well known to locals but a less well defined quartier. It is the area behind Port Hercule and includes the Monaco Market in the Place d'Armes and the main Police Station.

8. (Les) Moneghetti, like La Condamine, is well known to locals but a less well defined quartier. It is the high part to the west of Monaco, probably containing the Jardin Exotique.

I have no knowledge of official administrative districts - someone else will have to help there. However, I would never write any of the above quartiers as part of an address on an envelope in Monaco and I have never received mail even from official sources with a quartier in the address. If I were asked what the quartiers of Monaco were I'd probably say Saint Roman, Monte Carlo, La Condamine, Fontvieille and Moneghetti. I would be tempted to include the Tenao in Saint Roman and ignore the Larvotto as it's really mostly a beach.

The French areas surrounding Monaco are Cap d'Ail, Beausoleil and Saint-Roman. Cap d'Ail and Beausoleil are French towns (and probably municipalities or communes) and definitely nothing to do with Monaco. Saint-Roman is more problematic as stated earlier as it can refer to Monaco or France (as can Le Tenao). The French towns and municipalities past Saint Roman are Roquebrune (sur Mer and Village), Carnoles, Cap Martin, and Menton. If Menton was once part of Monaco, as stated, this is why the blurred boundaries must have arisen.

Monacoeye 02:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

New Monaco France frontier?

Residents will know that a huge new hotel has just been built (completed end 2005), at the Eastern end of the Monaco waterfront, on the promontory of reclaimed land that contains Le Sporting nightclub. The hotel is called the Monte Carlo Bay Resort. Ever since this promontory was built (in the 1970s?) the land has been unused. It was always said that it was under dispute between France and Monaco as it is on the border. I think the intention was for it to be in Monaco, but the French refused (saying it was in France).

Now that the hotel has been built, presumably an agreement has been reached. Until recently, most maps I've seen have have generally shown the border running down the middle of the promontory (ie the Sporting is in Monaco, the new Hotel would be France). But the latest tourist office map has an ambiguous shading which almost implies that the hotel is in Monaco. Furthermore, as a general principal, large buildings are only built on Monaco land (which is worth at least twice as much as the French land across the border). So I am curious to know where the new hotel officially lies.

What I've always heard is that the dispute was only for some underwater rocks : when Monaco has built this promontory, they made a "rock belt" to protect it from the sea. Doing this, they forgot that the frontier is also valid underwater : as the "rock belt" is tilted, some rocks slipped into the french territory. Iznogoud 14:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If the land is now Monaco it would mean France has given up some sovereign land, which I find almost impossible to believe (unless someone got something very substantial in return). It would also be a huge coup for Monaco. Because of the tiny size of the Principality, I estimate it would add about 1/50th to its land mass - which of course is the proportional equivalent of a new state in the US… Monacoeye 15:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

New state in the US? Are we speaking Rhode Island or Texas? ;-) - User:Carolus

New state in the US? Are you KIDDING? Monaco could fit inside of Central Park in New York! :) Rarelibra

I did say PROPORTIONAL equivalent (i.e. 1/50th) ;-) Monacoeye 09:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Number of quartiers

How many quartiers or sections are there in Monaco? Seven or four? Different articles on Wikipedia have different figures. — Instantnood 14:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from census statistics, there are four quartiers but there are also ten census sectors/neighborhoods. The sectors are further subdivided into lots. Polaron 16:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Quartiers and sectors
  • Monte-Carlo quartier
    • Monte-Carlo / Spelugues (28.1 ha)
    • La Rousse / Saint Roman (10.5 ha)
    • Larvotto / Bas Moulins (32.8 ha)
    • Saint Michel (14.2 ha)
  • Condamine quartier
    • Condamine (23.7 ha)
    • La Colle (18.8 ha)
    • Les Revoires (7.6 ha)
    • Moneghetti / Bd de Belgique (10.7 ha)
  • Monaco-ville quartier (18.5 ha)
  • Fontvieille quartier (32.4 ha)

Thanks. This article says seven. — Instantnood 19:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the other Monaco subdivision articles to make it consistent with this one. The official subdivisions of La Condamine and Monte Carlo are merely census designations. The actual neighborhoods/communities may not line up exactly with the census boundaries. Would it be useful to indicate the exact boundaries (i.e. the actual street names that border these subdivisions)? Polaron 00:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know if street names are necessary, but a map does help. — Instantnood 21:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

present

better

Size of quarters

The sizes in the table don't match the areas in the map.

Saint Romain is much bigger in the map than Saint Michel, but has a smaller area given.

--Ikar.us (talk) 09:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Quartièrs de Mónegue.svg matches the numbers much better then the present map. --Ikar.us (talk) 10:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Origin of name

The article implies two origins of the name Monaco - the Herculean temple and the Italian for monk. If the origin of the name is disputed, it needs to be brought out in the article. Damiancorrigan 10:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Principatu de Munegu?

In which language is this???

it's monégasque AleG 15:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Official languages?

Most sources I have consulted claim that French is the only official language of Monaco. The infobox (at the present) seems to agree with that. Formerly Monegasque was also mentioned in the infobox. If French is the official language, shouldn't the Monegasque version of the name (Principatu de Munegu) be removed from the infobox. It is still mentioned in the normal text of the article, so no piece of information would be lost.128.214.205.4 13:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

2nd Smallest?

Monaco isnt the second smallest country in the world, it is third after Sovereign Order of Malta, and Vatican City. 24.251.64.217 07:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The SOM isn't a state --AleG 18:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this ignoring some tiny South Pacific islands that are independent countries? Also, if I remember correctly, France is completely responsible for Monaco's defense and foreign policy... in which case I question whether Monaco is really a country at all. It's more like a tax scam masquerading as a country. Kind of like how Scientology is a criminal scam masquerading as a religion. Can any organization that claims to be... anything... be automatically accorded that status just because they claim it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.248.128 (talk) 04:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

religion

religion is stated twice in 2 sections.

fixed Civil Engineer III 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

GDP per capita ranking

The latest figures at List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita no longer show Monaco. Don't know why, so I changed the '24th' to 'not ranked.' -- RayBirks 21:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this serious?

Taken from the history section:

"Monaco derives its name from the nearby Greek colony of Phocaeans, Marseille, in the 6th century BC, which referred to the Ligurians as Monoikos, from the Greek Μόνοικος — μόνος + οίκος, "single house", which bears the sense of a people either settled in a "single habitation" or of "living apart" from others. According to an opium induced myth, Hercules passed through the Monaco area. A temple was constructed there by Phoceans, the temple of Hercules Monoikos.

...

"From 1793 to 1814, Monaco was under French control. The Congress of Vienna designated Monaco as a protectorate of the Kingdom of Sardinia from 1815 until 1860 when the Treaty of Turin ceded to France the porcelain figurines of Nizza and Savoy. During this time there was merriment in the towns of Menton and Roquebrune, which declared the date Figurine Day, hoping for annexation by Sardinia. The partying continued until the ruling prince wept before the people, begging for peace. He gave up his claim to the two towns (some 95% of the country) to France in return for one night with the royal Prussian maids. This transfer and Monaco's sovereignty was recognised by the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 1861."

Is that serious? or was it a missed vandalism episode? How do you cede porcelain figurines?--Sumple (Talk) 23:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the history section to more or less take it back to the last plausible-sounding version (the best I could do, since I don't really know anything about Monaco). I think that's at least an improvement. Rafaelgr 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I see that all of the weirdness goes back to one anonymous edit last month from an IP at a public school in Florida. Rafaelgr 01:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Is Monaco really sovereign?

The history article notes that Monaco was a protectorate of the Kingdom of Sardinia until 1860, and that this was transferred to France at that time. It is my understanding that this protectorate still remains, in some ways, in effect, although various treaties between France and Monaco have changed the relationship to bring Monaco closer to full sovereignty. But is it really fully sovereign? I understand that it is a UN member state, but so was pre-1947 India, which was by no reasonable standard a sovereign state. So also were the Ukrainian and Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republics. So that can't, in and of itself, make something a sovereign state. So, I was wondering: what exactly are the terms of Monaco's relationship with France? Besides UN membership, is Monaco's status significantly different from that of the Cook Islands and Niue, which we generally do not consider to be sovereign states? john k 12:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

' Yes it's a sovereign state but bound by law to several conventions with France. Basically Napoleon Bonaparte allowed Monaco to keep its independence, in exchange for all sorts of French controls. For example, the Chief of police must be French (!) and appointed by the French government. At least one important cabinet position must be held by a similarly appointed Frenchman. When Monaco need police for events such as the Grand Prix it is overrun with French police. All relevant records are given to the French police (such as parking fines, and residents' nationality) so that French citizens cannot evade tax. French warships regularly make an appearance in the port, and , I believe, "assure the protection" of the Principality. All power and most water comes from France, which surrounds the country. So in principle it is an independent state and Monegasques and French receive no automatic social benefits in each other's country (though health and motor insurance does work cross-border to some extent). Mobile phones numbers don't require country prefixes in the local area, whether in France or Monaco, though landlines do. The Prince is a major landholder in France and was recently reported as one of the greatest personal recipients of EU farm subsidies (at least a billion if I remember rightly - despite Monaco not being allowed in EU!). Much of the royal family lives in France. Bear in mind, the country is the size of Central Park - it's much smaller than Singapore and far far smaller than Hong Kong - microstates with which it is continually and erroneously compared. Which is why continually banging on about what the capital of Monaco is, is about as pointless as asking a two-year old what they do for a living, or looking for the brain of single-celled organism. The question doesn't apply, and there is no consensus because it's a meaningless question. It's perfect example of a category error as Aristotle would say. PS it's extremely tedious using a Monaco registered credit card online because all credit-card forms have city and state fields and simply do not allow for the fact that there are no cities or states or counties or departments or any other such regions in Monaco. Why is it so hard for people to understand!! Just because your capital city was the first thing you learned in geography at elementary school, try to understand it makes no sense in this "country"!!

It's a banana republic.--87.64.24.4 23:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

There are bananas in Monaco, in the Jardin Exotique. 80.192.75.30 22:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Monaco is a sovereign state, because it is recognized as such by the international community. --dllu 10:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Monaco at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Monaco. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Monaco isn't a Country, it is merely a piece of land that France has chosen not to exercise complete control over. There are two relevant facts at play here. Firstly, it's a "principality," and by definition that makes it a vassal state of a larger state, in this case, la France. Secondly, it isn't a signatory to the Treaty of Rome. Which, yup, you gussed it, decides what is and what is not a country in Europe.

This new GDP -figures

Somehow, the figures in the press must be spinned. The GDP is given to be $4500 million, and the population is given to be 35657. This means GDP per capita is $126202. It is given to be $67000, which leads me to guess they have disregarded the earnings of the commuters in the figure of GDP per capita, but not in the total GDP. Is this the right way of doing it? Of course, both the french owners and the local bosses would be scared to tell how much this little tax-evaders paradise actually manage to siphon off the rest of the world.Greswik 11:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Tax Haven

I have added few facts regarding Monaco tax haven situation in the Economy section. --Blanchisserie 15:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be relevant to mention that US citizens are taxed on their worldwide income, so that residing in Monaco would represent no tax savings whatsoever for them. Dick Kimball (talk) 15:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Demographics claim

"...the native Monegasques are a minority in their own country". It's uncited, but how many "native Monegasques" are there, both inside and outside Monaco? 68.122.3.84 03:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Oil fields in Monaco?

Are there really any oil fields in Monaco? I heard that Lili's father owns an oil company in Monaco. Angie Y. 19:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

wiki format

Should geography go before history like this? Contralya 18:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Capitol

As far as I know, Monaco has no capital. Logically, it cannot be its own capital, and formally, it has not been appointed thus in the constitution Monaco's official government website. Guido den Broeder 08:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I live part of the year in Antibes, France, not far from Monaco. Its official capitol is Monaco-ville (familiarly known as "La Rocher," The Rock) where its National Council meets and the location of the Palais Princier where its ruling prince lives. Dick Kimball (talk) 15:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK, its capital is the men's room in the Monte Carlo casino. At least that's where most of the real decisions are made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.248.128 (talk) 05:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Date of UN membership

In the article, both 1991 (Law and Government section) and 1993 (History section). Someone with knowledge of the areas should determine which is correct and fix the incorrect one. -Fenevad 12:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Community

I have just edited the Jewish community's section again. This section keeps growing, without any new facts being added! Can I encourage less 'wordy' editing in this section? It is important to include the Jewish community, but the four paragraphs which were there until a few minutes ago simply weren't justified or needed. I have edited the material back down to a single paragrapgh, by removing repeated references. For example:

• We don't need two paragraphs, both about the Association Culturelle Israelite de Monaco.
• We don't need 4 in-line references to the same web-page within the space of as many sentences!

In editing this material down to a single paragraph nothing has been lost from the text, except its 'wordiness', and I have not removed any facts except the following two:

• The name of the current rabbi - I'm sure he's great, but he's not notable, and we don't want to start naming priests, rabbis, and imams in every reference to a religious community in Wikipedia!
• The reference to diplomatic relations between Israel and Monaco (which has been removed before), as this section is about religion, not politics.
  

Timothy Titus Talk To TT 20:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I've just removed a HUGE paragraph (all in French) seemingly about what the Jewish Residents of Monaco did during WW2. If the content is important it should be translated into English, or be put in the French language Wikipedia. Eyebeeuk (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I remove the huge lie about the prince and his Government saving Jewish people during World War II. The prince and his Government were fully allied with Petain's French fascist government and hosts famous nazis during the war. They enact anti-Jewish laws and let French policemen arrest Jewish people whereas they could have easily stop them.--81.64.51.249 (talk) 18:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Blanchisserie

Someone has removed all references to Jews from the article - they are anonymous, and left no edit commentary. I intent to restore at least some of the material. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 17:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

smallest french speaking country

The introduction says "Monaco is the world's smallest French-speaking country.", which is a rather obsolete statement in my eyes. Given the fact that it is the second-smallest country in the world and the smallest one is not a french-speaking country, this fact is neither interesting nor in any way relevant. I have not seen any introduction about any other country, because this would be ridiculous in most cases ("Russia is the largest russian-speaking country in the world")... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.14.130.183 (talk) 17:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe

Hello Monaco/Archive 1! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

No income tax?

According to http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/jmcpetx.html the claim that Monaco has no income tax is false. Monaco has an income tax "amounting to nearly 50% of salary":

Social insurance contributions payable by employers and employees are high. The employer's contribution is between 28%-40% (averaging 35%) of gross salary including benefits and the employee pays a further 10%-14% (averaging 13%). An employee who is paid part of his wage by way of stock options which can be cashed in and sold at a future point in time may be required to pay social insurance on the value of the option at the time it is realized as if the option had been a salary. Social insurance contributions, amounting to nearly 50% of salary, are a major disincentive to the hiring of staff and in many ways detract substantially from the advantageous income tax regime which exists in Monaco.

Hi,

Do not make the confusion between Income Tax (impôt sur le revenu in French) and social contributions or other tax issues. There is actually no Income Tax (see definition here [[7]]) but of course there are social contributions (such as the social insurance in your link) When your link talks about "income tax regime", it is not exact as French would say only "tax regime". Please check carefuly what is "Income Tax" and you will see that it does not exist in Monaco, except for some French citizens living there -Blanchisserie 08:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)-

Blanchisserie, I would suggest that: in certain regions, it is common to use the word "tax" or "taxes" to INCLUDE things like the social contributions. For instance, a Yank would say "Hell, my taxes include the 10% FICA,, 30% income tax, and a few others! My taxes are 60% by the time they are done." ie, it is something "taken from you!" by the government, so it's a tax even if they have another term for it.

For example, this causes annoyance / agitation in the UK .. the government talks about reducing the "duty" on fuel even though miraculously the 'tariff" on fuel goes up .... "we've lowered the duty"!

Another example is Estonia - it famously has "no income tax" but the locals just laugh because of the 30% or so "social tax" ("not income tax!")

I think it should simply be made clear in the article what the situation is; of course terminology varies all over, not to mention in different languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.36.207 (talk) 13:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Confusion

The Council of Europe also decided to issue reports naming tax havens. 22 territories, Monaco included, were thus evaluated between 1998 and 2000 on a first round. Monaco is the only territory that refuses to perform the second round, initially forecast between 2001 and 2003, whereas the 21 other territories are implementing the third and last round, planned between 2005 and 2007.

What on earth does this mean? What are the rounds? I think it needs deleting/heavily editing. Thoughts? 88.109.40.27 (talk) 12:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, When assessing European territories as tax haven, the Council of Europe decided to make investigations following 3 steps in a period of time ("round") Monaco is the only assessed territory among all other alledged tax havens that has denied from implementing the last 2 steps ("rounds"). This point is very important and worth to be noted as it shows Monaco's willing to keep on money laundering business. Blanchisserie -08:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)-

'sources of income'

"One of Monaco's main sources of income is tourism..."

There are a number of problems here:

(*) the phrase "A country's income" could mean ****the government's income**** or it could mean "the income of humans who live in that country.

These two concepts are totally and completely different.

For instance, the USA *government's* main source of income is (I assume) from income taxes and import tariffs. Whereas "The USA's" main source of income was (say) from primary industries in the 1800s and from (say) Hollywood and the Auto industry today.

It is inconceivable that the main source of income of "all the people living in MC" is TOURISM. MC is packed with multimillionaires who's main source of income is from all the world's major industries, as well as from things sports income, celebrity income, etc.

(There are only - what - 6 ? hotels in Monaco.)

If you did the math, the "main source of income" of everyone living in MC would probably be something like "the oil industry" or just "financial services".

Regarding the income of the *government* of MC, traditionally it came from the Casino. I assume the *government* of MC also takes in quite a bit of money from the various monopoly utilities and so on, too, to help run the country.

It is not actually clear or obvious that "tourism" would be the main source of funds of the *government*. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.36.207 (talk) 13:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have any opinion on this? If not, I will completely change the "sources of income" section since it is quite silly, as explained in detail above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.36.207 (talk) 22:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Tax haven

Some comments are approximative and wrong

• Before adding massive paragraphs on this topic, please discuss here first, that is why I reverted many unconsistent statements Blanchisserie 14:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

• What the heck are you doing ? Silly.

(1) it is PERFECTLY OK to add "massive paragraphs" in Wikipedia

(2) i added, in fact, ONLY A FEW paragraphs

(3) all of the paragraphs added were packed with factual information, of central importance.

NO offense, the previous section on "tax haven" looked like it had been written by someone who knows nothing about "tax havens"

(4) NOTHING was "unconsistent" (you mean "inconsistent" in English)

(5) You confusingly talk as if you "own" this page? don't be silly

(6) You should now please LEAVE IT ALONE. I hope that's perfectly clear.

(7) AS A BROAD RULE, NEVER EVER REVERT except in the case of overt vandalism. If you don't know this, look it up.

If there's some ** SPECIFIC POINT ** you want to discuss, go for it. Geesh.

Silly nonsense.

• Hi, the problem is that you write long comment on what is a tax haven and what it is not. Then you give your opinion that has no value and that is not true. For example, you think that tax haven is only a tax rate issue whereas many others points have to be taken into account such as cooperation, secret, laws, etc.

Therefore:

-"In general terms, Monaco has no personal income tax for many types of business owners, investors and self-employed people who live in Monaco and who make their money outside of Monaco; however, there is a major exception: this does not apply to French nationals living in Monaco. Thus, Monaco could be called a "tax haven" - but not for the French."

Wrong, "tax haven" definition is not what you write, it is far more complex, you make wrong conclusion. French people can benefit from the bank secret and monaco laws enable tax evasion. Your definition of "Tax haven" = "lack of personal income tax" is too limited

-"This is not unlike the situation in, for example, the United Kingdom, where there are tremendous tax benefits for those from certain (but not all) countries who are strictly not U.K. citizens: London enjoys a large number of super-rich foreign residents for the identical tax reasons as Monaco."

This has nothing to do with the Monaco article, there is no comparison between UK and Monaco because the situation cannot be compared regarding the tax haven issue.

-"Furthermore, conventional salaried employees in Monaco, while paying no "income tax," do pay a very substantial "social insurance contribution" from their income, which amounts to some 40 to 50 percent of overall income paid by the employer, and indeed is higher than income tax rates in many other countries.

The actual tax savings available to an individual from another country living in Monaco depends on the exact details of the individual's income sources and on the tangle of so-called double taxation agreements and tax treaty agreements between Monaco and other countries. (Indeed for many of the world's super-rich, there would be no advantage at all to being resident in Monaco.)''"

Same point, you only limit "tax haven" with personal tax. This is wrong.

-"It is worth noting that Monaco does not function in any way as an "offshore" centre.

Monaco has no offshore company formulations whatsoever.

Offshoring is not possible in Monaco, and Monaco is not an offshore financial center in any way. Taxes and regulations on businesses in Monaco are "normal." Thus Monaco is strictly a personal tax haven (for non-French individuals), and is in no way a business tax haven, such as Bermuda, United States, Hong Kong, Panama, Singapore and the other IMF offshore centers (List of offshore financial centres).'"

Wrong, the IMF considers Monaco as a tax haven

Monaco as a tax haven is not a myth, otherwise YOU are right and the IMF, the Council of Europe, and the OECD are wrong ? I do no think so and I state all sources.

Please apply your "rule" to you, you do not want to be reverted but you reverted what I wrote Blanchisserie 10:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Soooo... after reading through these comments, I have no idea what is going on here, due to confusing language, confusing structure, and at least one editor forgetting to include their signature. Can someone please brief us in plain English? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 19:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. As you can read, there are massive paragraphs that are wrong about tax haven definition. This guy 81.149.36.207 wrote wrong conclusions about what is and what is not a tax haven or an offshore center, ad then wrote that Monaco is not a tax haven (look at the title, he thinks that it is a "myth"!) whereas the IMF, the Council of Europe and the OECD (I put all sources) consider that Monaco is a tax haven. Moreover some of his writing are weird, such as comparison with UK, or inappropriate, such as comments on "personal income tax" that are too much specific (i mean you do not define all American litterature after reading one single book ! That's the same, you do not define a tax haven with only the "personal income tax" issue)

I hope I am clear, English is not my native language, sorry.

Blanchisserie 11:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Clues for the clueless (starting with me)

This article seems to have been more or less stable when, July 8, 81.149.36.207 altered some text and added a section on "Tax haven myths and facts" which seems to be an attempt to defend Monaco against the "charge" of being a tax haven, plus some text with some peacock words that leap out at me like "It's the glamorous centerpiece of Formula One racing..." There may well be some verifiable material behind this, but it reads more like an essay or editorial written to promote Monaco. It wasn't encyclopedic, to put it briefly, and it wasn't sourced. Removing this material with reversion was quite appropriate, provided the reverted editor is then invited to discuss individual changes in Talk. Blanchisserie did remove it. He's an inexperienced editor, doesn't know how to sign his work (I've explained to him before) and his English is spotty, plus the IP editor likewise doesn't sign his or her work and thus the whole thing quickly becomes a mish-mash and hard to follow. Too many words, I'd say (and I'm known for too many words.) I'm going to basically take the article back to how it was before .207 jumped in, and, please, let's cooperate to (1) restore individual appropriate changes made after that time, and (2) discuss anything possibly controversial, which would include about all of what .207 put in, here in Talk before making the change. Given that controversy has arisen, please don't add unsourced text. You may take out unsourced text, but it is more courteous to place a citation-needed tag on it, like this -> {{cn}} <- and a bot will date that and if no source appears within a reasonable time (say, a month), then anyone can take it out. I suggest that if something is likely to be sourceable (which does not mean "true," but for example, it might be quotable from a reliable source; it might be false, but that so-and-so notably said it is true), but that simply hasn't been done, don't just take it out, tag it. I'll watch and try to help. This is a cooperative project fueled by consensus, and consensus tries to include everyone.--Abd (talk) 13:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I completely agree with you. I know that tax haven is a touchy issue and many people would love to see no reference regarding this point, especially for Monaco as it gives a bad image. Therefore sources are of primary importance and no argument should be added without a proper source, that is what I did.

Blanchisserie 18:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... is being considered a "tax haven" really an undesirable thing? I think it is a positive thing to be considered a tax haven, as a state that does not take money from its citizens unnecessarily, rather than being considered a "tax state", which systematically takes 20% or more of a person's income. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Still the same confusion, a tax haven is not only a personnal income issue. For instance, "Secret rulings" enable terrorism, money laundering, embezzlement... Many cases underlines links between mafia and such countries Blanchisserie 10:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blanchisserie (talk • contribs)

Oh, I understand. Anyway, I agree with you that this article should not have a detailed explanation of why Monaco is not a tax haven. If reliable sources suggest it is a tax haven, we can mention that. If other reliable sources mention it is not, we should also mention that. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 11:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. It is not our job to decide if Monaco is or is not a tax haven, nor if it is a good thing or not. It's our job to write, illustrate, edit, and maintain the best possible article on Monaco, using sources such that whatever we write can be verified by anyone. With the rollback I did, a really beautiful wide view of Monaco, from an IP editor, was removed, also some small edits by another user. I've put them back now. Everyone who has contributed to this article should feel proud of it, and any new editors who show up should be welcomed and assisted. Instead of removing the new material, I'd have tried to help work it into usable form, but there was too much of it, too quickly. That editor is welcome to come back and try again, but, with anything likely to be controversial, please discuss it in Talk, preferably first. We'll need reliable sources for anything controversial. I also took out the external link to a hotel, because, not only was it broken -- I first started to fix it--, I don't think it was appropriate. If that hotel is sufficiently notable that it is mentioned in the article, then the link would be appropriate, otherwise it's more like an advert.--Abd (talk) 12:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Direct Heirs Rule

Can someone please expand on this 'direct heirs' rule that existed before 2002. From what I understand, before this rule change, if a prince died without heirs, Monaco would be annexed by France. How were 'direct heirs' defined? Was it just the children of the prince? From reading the story of Louis II and his illegitimate daughter, there is no mention of possible annexation (before she was legally adopted) but rather concern that a distanct german cousin would inherit the throne. If a cousin could inherit the throne, then it would have been practically impossible to die without heirs as everyone has a distant cousin if you continue to expand the family tree until you find one. Please help me out. Juve2000 (talk) 02:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Security

Dominick Dunne alleges in his book Justice that visitors to Monaco are followed and their phones tapped. He describes the prince as an absolute monarch; people were afraid to be seen with him for fear of having their residency permits revoked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.213.86 (talk) 05:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this the only country

Who's capital city name is the same as the countries? Even Vatican's capital is Vatican City

Also why when you Google capital on Monaco you get Monaco-Ville (de facto) 43°44′N, 7°24′E and its reference is Wikipedia I'm confused. Is Google wrong (are they making stuff up) or did Wikipedia get edited since Google made that response.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=capital+of+monaco&spell=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.249.55 (talk) 18:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

May I point you to the following nations/capitals:

Kuwait and Kuwait city,

Luxembourg and Luxembourg city,

Panama and Panama City,

San Marino and the City of San Marino,

Mexico and Mexico City,

Thats all I could think of off the top of my head, there are many anyway. As for Monaco, Monaco-Ville is a quartier, not a city. --SelfQ (talk) 22:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you got my point. All these city's have the word city. But Monaco is just monaco and not monaco city. Also you didnt completly answer my question about google. How did google get Monaco-Ville and the source for it is Wikipedia when wikipedia doesnt claim Monaco-Ville is the capital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.249.55 (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Forget everything about your town-city or google map. Here is the truth.

-The state is "La Principauté de Monaco" or only "Monaco"

-The name of the town is "Monaco"

The territory and boundaries are exactly the same

Therefore, it is the same name but on a legal point, this is 2 different authorities

Inside Monaco, you have different "quartiers":

- Monaco-Ville

(which is the former name of a city into "La Principauté de Monaco", from 1911-1917)

- Monte-Carlo/Spélugues - La Rousse/Saint Roman - Larvotto/Bas Moulins - Saint Michel

(these "quartiers" represent the former city of Monte-Carlo, into "La Principauté de Monaco", from 1911-1917)

- La Condamine - La Colle - Les Révoires

(these "quartiers" represent the former city of La Condamine, into "La Principauté de Monaco", from 1911-1917)

- Fontvieille - Le Portier

(these "quartiers" were gained on the sea a few years ago)

--Blanchisserie 16:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Principality and country

In the Administrative division section of the article, there is a statement about Monaco not being a country but a principality:

Unknown to most, Monaco is not a country but in fact a principality.

This really confuses me; the term "country" usually means a sovereign state. Monaco is definitely a sovereign state, although France has some control over Monaco's policies. A principality means that the head of state is a prince, much like a kingdom means that the head of state is a king (or queen). Can someone reconcile the statement in the article? --Joshua ^{Say "hi" to me!}_{What I've done?} 18:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see your point ?? A country can be a Principality, a Kingdom, a Federal State, etc. A "country" is a soveraign territory, but Principality or Kingdom is the political organisation. Liechtenstein is a country and a Principality (like Monaco) or Luxemburg is a country and a "Grand Duché"...--Blanchisserie 21:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blanchisserie (talk • contribs)

Exactly, a principality is merely a country (usually independent) ruled by a prince, just as a duchy is ruled by a duke, a kingdom by a king, an empire by an emperor, etc. The terms date to medieval times, before the modern nation-state became the basic unit of government. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 21:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

That's what I meant in the first place. In short: that sentence in the article is confusing. --Joshua ^{Say "hi" to me!}_{What I've done?} 05:22, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect information by Wikipedia on Rene Blum

(In keeping with Wikipedia's tradition of inaccuracy.)

Rene Blum was not from Monaco, but from Paris. He founded the Ballet de l'Opera, hired by the Monegasque government, but he was French. He was also deported from his Paris home via Drancy to Auschwitz, not from Monaco.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Geographic extent

Has the geographic extent ever been larger then its current borders and where would I be able to see this map?♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 04:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

See the maps at Roquebrune-Cap-Martin; they were hived off in 1848.86.42.194.121 (talk) 08:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

1954 or 1917

Hello! Actually I work with Ru-Wiki. But recently I saw this edit and its history. I suppose, that the part about the quartiers of Monaco originally was a translation of the french article, which has another year of the foundation of the unique commune (not 1954, but 1917). And I suspect that the discovered edit was done by a vandal (look the history, his/her contributions and his/her another edit). That's why I changed the date. --Dynasha (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Capital City (again!)

Hi everyone. I took the liberty to do what some of you may consider as a breach to Wikipedia's standards: I included on short explanation that Monaco-Ville is neither a town nor the capital city of Monaco in the info box at the top right of the article, in the capital city section. This may seem a little heavy, but, this part had been vandalized again. So, appart from the fact that I am very frustated to notice that my capital city is once in a while wrong in Wikipedia, please consider the following before removing this unusually located explanation:

- The name "Monaco-Ville" (Monaco City) is and will always been misleading, especially when thinking about countries where the rules is actually correct (Luxembourg > Luxembourg city).

- Many websites or even US "encyclopedias" are relaying this false information (which I remind, as a Monegasque myself, can be verified on the Monaco government website gouv.mc in French). It is unbelievable for many people than an encyclopedia could be wrong on a capital city...especially in this case where the entry is not even a city ! But here, it's the case.

So, if you feel this inclusion of a short explanation is beyond the standards, please feel free to remove it...but please, consider as well that if you do so, you're increasing the chances that we'll have to go back and replace Monaco-Ville by Monaco every once in a while Thanks!! Pierremc (talk) 00:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Monegasque or Monacan?

Hi. Could a native English speaker (with real and serious dictionnaries at hand) shed the light on whether the correct demonym for citizens of Monaco (living or having the citizenship) in English is Monegasque and/or Monacan? I've hear Monacan a lot, but I don't know whether it's a lack of knowledge of the (unobvious) Monegasque term or a real accepted alternative. For information, in many european languages (Italian, German, Dutch...), the demonym is alway a derivative of the French term "Monegasque" (itself coming from the Monegasque language : "Munegascu") If "Monacan" is recognized in some dictionaries, then we should add it to the article. If it is not, then maybe we could add a small note in the body of the article regarding this commonly made mistake. Thanks. Pierremc (talk) 00:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of English, usually regarded as the authoritive source for these things in the United Kingdom, gives the demonym as Monégasque. There is no mention of Monacan. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

2nd smallest principality??

"Monaco is the second smallest principality in Europe" - is it?? So which principality is smaller? The only possible contender is the Principality of Sealand, which is a joke country in my opinion. So I think this statement is nonsense. Bazonka (talk) 20:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Bazonka, this is a very good remark. The only smaller country (recognized as such by its international relations, even though it is just an observer of the United-Nations) is the Vatican City. Wikipedia lists the Vatican City as having an "Ecclesiastical" type of government. So, although the type of government of the Vatican city is probbaly hard to spot, in is in no way a principality and has no prince. I am removing this from the article. The term "principality" is often in popular culture mistaken as a synonym for "micro-state"; although not all micro-states are principalities, and sometimes not even monarchies (eg. San Marino, Republic). Pierremc (talk) 21:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Madame Marney Burgess

The Administrative divisions section includes the following preposterous statement:

The municipalities were merged into one in 1917 by Madame Marney Burgess....

The absurd name Madame Marney Burgess was added anonymously 19:04, 24 June 2009 by 24.158.195.249, whose only other Wikipedia contribution was to restore the same addition a few hours later after it had been properly removed by Marek69 for the vandalism it surely is. It has gone unchallenged through the succeeding four months. I'm going to remove it again and hope that 24.158.195.249 has found more appropriate venues for his or her infantile creativity.

Just to be sure, I Googled "Madame Marney Burgess" and found this article as the only result. I also checked the Italian and French Wikipedia articles on Monaco, and neither has that name in the corresponding sentence.

While I'm here, will somebody PLEASE explain to me why unregistered users are even allowed to edit Wikipedia articles? They seem to account for practically all the vandalism and the hours and hours spent by responsible users who police them. I know there's no way to eliminate vandalism, but not allowing anybody to edit anonymously would help. Surely there's a Wikipedia policy somewhere that justifies allowing this to continue unchecked, but I can't find it.

My chief complaint about the whole Wikimedia world is that its internal documentation is an even more chaotic, byzantine labyrinth than the public pages are. Half of my Firefox bookmarks are to Wiki internal documentation pages that I spent ungodly amounts of time finding and don't want to have to repeat.--Jim10701 (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Wards of Monaco

The information on Monaco is really interesting. I have actually compared the overview picture of the wards with a Google map, which I know could be wrong about this. (Google map is sometimes wrong about other things.) With the picture and the wards listed information, it is quite obvious they are different. The picture shows ward 10 is the smallest by area, but the info says ward 8 has the smallest area. I've actually looked at the Google map for some of the cities this page tells the world about Monaco; it looks like either the country shrunk or parts of the country have moved, which I kind of doubt because that's hard to do. Is there any way someone could edit the ward info and/or overview ward map to make it more up-to-date? If anyone compares other maps of Monaco with this Wikipedia page, they'll be confused just like I was. I don't want that happening, especially if it's for school reports, journalism, or creative writiing.

(I am asking this also because I am trying to write a fiction story; I'd like the setting for part of it to be in Monaco.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.139.80 (talk) 05:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Links

What happened to the links under the Flag and Coat of Arms that goes to their respective article pages??? Can someone fix that? Fry1989 (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Population drop

Population

-  	2010 estimate 	30,586[4] (211th)
-  	2008 census 	35,352[3]

What happened to the five thousands? --David.s.kats (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where it comes from but the 2010 number is obviously wrong, the latest published number, from the only reliable source - the Monaco government, is 35,646 in 2009. This number was officially published in Monaco's legal publication; Journal Officiel (in French). Furthermore, this 2009 number was officially published in April 2010, so given the timeline this would confirm there is still no 2010 official figure. I would advise correcting this. Pierremc (talk) 10:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Monaco Formula One Grand Prix

Have to question the claim that "It is considered to be the second-most prestigious automobile race in the world behind only the Indianapolis 500". Quick searches on Google clearly put it the other way around with the Monaco Grand Prix being more prestigious than Indianapolis 500. The primary Monaco Grand Prix article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco_Grand_Prix) states "is widely considered to be one of the most important and prestigious automobile races in the world, alongside the Indianapolis 500". This is a more reasonable statement with neither claim more important. Can anyone provide any clear citation for this? Otherwise it should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.127.214.235 (talk) 06:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Please stop messing with the country headline (country vs. city-state)

Hi,

I have corrected several times the first sentence, wrongfully replaced regularly by "Monaco is a...city-state". This is an incomplete definition. A city state can be "independent or autonomous entity" which does not automatically mean country.

Monaco is a country AND a city-state. Monaco's status as a country is indisputed, recognized by all majors countries in the world, maintaining diplomatic relations with neighbours and other nations, and also a member of the United-Nations since 1993 (please refer to article and related sources).

The word "country" is a standard on Wikipedia, the fact that Monaco is a city-state is an additional information. Thank you for not editing an article without proper documentation. Pierremc (talk) 23:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Population Density rank is wrong

I get yelled at for editing crap on here so I'd rather not risk fixing it myself.

It says it's 1st in the sidebar for population density, but when you click "1st" it links to a page showing it's second.

Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.172.128 (talk) 18:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry if someone yells at you. Some people are just rude and overbearing! If you think something is wrong, fix it, but try to find an independent citation that backs up the change (Wikipedia is not a reliable source for citations, so look outside the project to back up your claim!).

You may find you get shouted at less (don't guarantee it, but it's worth a try) if you register for Wikipedia and get a user name. Some editors are very suspicious of contributions by anonymous IP addresses, as that is the source of much of the vanadlism on Wikipedia. It doesn't cost anything to register, and you don't have to use your real name on screen. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

HDI - Human Development Index

The infobox for Monaco declares it as 1st on the HDI, with a score 0.946. Oddly enough, if you click over to the HDI page it does not list a value for Monaco anywhere. Further, Monaco is explicitly stated as being excluded due to insufficient data, and no citation is given for the 0.946. Undoubtedly, Monaco is very high on the HDI, but to state an arbitrary and unsubstantiated figure, especially one ranking it 1st in the world, seems disingenuous at the very least. 71.33.171.144 (talk) 22:12, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

"widely spoken and understood"

Given Monaco's small size, I'm not sure that it makes sense to describe a language as "widely spoken and understood" there. —Ruakh_TALK 20:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Even though Monaco is small in size close to 45% of the population speak another language at home, like Monegasque (dialect), Italian, and even English. Furthermore many Monegasque (people) speak a second or even a third language fluently.B-watchmework (talk) 02:35, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Right, but that's 45% of a small population that all lives within a single square mile; it seems to me that no language can be "widely" spoken there. —Ruakh_TALK 02:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

distance from italy and nice, france

What is the correct measurement of the distance from Monaco to the Italian border and to the city of Nice, France? The reference currently provided (now footnote #7) does not match what is on the main page. These numbers are fairly close (13km vs. 15km) but in terms of the size of this country such differences make a real difference. In any case the citation given doesn't match the text of the article--does it refer to something that's been deleted? 24.42.76.17 (talk) 09:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

It depends on where you are measuring from, the correct distance should be 15km.B-watchmework (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

References

I removed one reference (cited in two locations under the economy heading) that linked to an online gambling site with no actual information about gambling in Monaco. I don't have time currently to check all of the references for spam like this, but it's something to be on the look out for, since the archived talk page indicates that this page has been subject to vandalism. Robinkhi (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. B-watchmework (talk) 05:16, 4 August 2012 (UTC)