Talk:Monastery Church, Sighișoara

Article title

The article was moved without discussion, the common name used in the sources is Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane, so I have moved it back. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Of two academic sources you use, Crăciun calls it "the Dominican convent of Sighișoara", while Spinei merely mentions an abbey in Sighișoara, without specifying a particular name. The Romanian government (p. 1081, nr. 834) calls it "the church of the former Dominican monastery, today a Lutheran church, known as the Monastery Church".

There is no one name for this building: relevant sources tend to use a couple of varieties to get at the same idea. Given that, given WP:UE — "Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane" will not mean much for the vast majority of Wikipedia readers, who are presumed to be anglophone only) —, and given how we generally title Catholic churches in Romania, the eminently sensible solution seems to me "Monastery Church, Sighișoara". It's in English, it's one of the names used (or at least an approximation thereof), it includes the location, and it immediately gives the reader an fairly good idea of what the article is about, something "Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane" does not. - Biruitorul ^Talk 14:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, it should either stay here or be moved to Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara), which is the translation. "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" sure as hell ain't happening, that is a terrible name. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Given your dismissive and confrontational attitude, I am proceeding with a move request. - Biruitorul ^Talk 14:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page, per consensus in the discussion below that an English title is required. If a different English title is still desired, please initiate a new move request. Dekimasuよ! 15:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

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Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane → Monastery Church, Sighișoara – There are four principal reasons for retitling this article and adopting my proposed replacement:

• The current title is not in English, and per WP:UE, we should be using an English-language title: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader."
  • There is, in fact, no established name in English, with one academic source calling it "the Dominican convent of Sighișoara" and another not even assigning a particular name. I think it's undeniable that a translation will not diminish accuracy but will greatly improve understanding for English speakers.
• If one looks at Category:Roman Catholic churches in Romania and, to a lesser extent, Category:Lutheran churches in Romania, one sees that there is a generally established pattern for titling churches of these denominations in this country (the present church switched from Catholic to Lutheran in 1556): name, city. "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" fits perfectly within that pattern.
• The closest we have to an official name is this, from the Romanian Culture Ministry. It refers to the building as "the church of the former Dominican monastery, today a Lutheran church, known as the Monastery Church", which is whence I derived the proposed new title.
• "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" is in English, it gives the name and location right away, and helps the average reader rather than confronting him with an unrecognizable phrase. Biruitorul ^Talk 14:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per the noms own argument, per UE we are meant to use a translation of the given name, as such any move ought to be to, Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara). And the ops opening statement is incorrect, travel guides as well as the academic sources in the article give the english translation as well as current title, which is obviously the actual name of the church. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Travel guides are pretty shoddy as a source in general, and they're explicitly less worthy of consideration than academic works: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources", per WP:RS. (Evidently, the travel guide cited in the article is not an academic publication; the author is a freelance photojournalist and translator.)
  • Sorry, but are you accusing me of lying? Here is Crăciun p. 64, and here is Spinei p.420. As anyone can see, neither source uses the present title as such.
  • I'm not sure what standard Darkness Shines uses to determine what is "obviously the actual name of the church", but I would think a good place to start would be the Romanian Culture Ministry, which uses "Monastery Church", and Sighișoara City Hall, which, well, also calls it the "Monastery Church". So in fact, "obviously the actual name of the church" is "Monastery Church". - Biruitorul ^Talk 15:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support I definitely support an English title, based on the naming conventions of Wikipedia and common sense – the current title ain't no tell anything at all for a non-native speaker. However, when it comes about a proper English name, I'm a bit confused. The only cited source that mentions a concrete name says Church of the Dominican Monastery, though I'm a bit unsure about how accurate International Business Times is in this question – it's definitely out of their main scope. Doing a quick google search didn't convince me either; there were probably more Monastery Church results, though, taking a closer look at these I had to notice that there's a overlap between the search results and that sources not necessarily talk about this concrete church. Still, reading the sources above and based my own searches I'd say that a higher number of authetic sources say simply Monastery Church and thus I tend to support this version. However, I also ha)ve to consider that the other name is also frequently used, therefore I'd suggest to mention it in the article, somehow like this: "The Monastery Church, also known as the Church of the Dominican Monastery..." Also, I think the article would benefit and would make it clearer if a bit story would be added about that it was first a Dominican (Roman Catholic) church, which was later passed to the Lutherans. Thehoboclown (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support, I certainly support the move to an English name but Monastery Church, Sighișoara sounds a bit unspecific. A few questions arise immediately: Which monastery's church? Is that the only monastery in Sighisoara? I would also prefer Church of the Dominican Monastery if nothing else can be found. But I wonder if we can't find the real, old name for it, maybe at least in German/Transylvanian Saxon. Maybe it had a name, such as St. Michael's Church or something like that in the middle ages. BTW, here is a faster way to navigate to the List of Historical Monuments in Romania, using the LMI Code, for example for this church: ro:Cod:LMI:MS-II-m-A-15936--Codrin.B (talk) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
  • There is, as far as I can tell, just one other monastery in Sighișoara, and since it's not notable (founded 1997, scant independent coverage) and won't have an article, there is little possibility of confusion. Also, the important question in terms of the title isn't what the medieval name was — that is, of course, something we should mention in the article text if we find it — but what its name is today. Given that the Culture Ministry and Sighișoara City Hall both use "Monastery Church", I think that's a pretty good indication. I'm not absolutely opposed to having "Dominican" in the title, but I did want to clarify that the most common usage seems not to include it. - Biruitorul ^Talk 21:21, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The most common usage is the direct translation per the sources which is Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara). Sources Transylvania p189 Bradt Travel Guides Lonely Planet Romania & Bulgaria Romania and Moldova Lonely Planet p164 Romania P149 Eastern Europe P646 Also the original name appears to have been St Nicholas The Grove Encyclopedia of Medieval Art and Architecture p358 and the stained glass windows from the church now reside at Torun district museum, same source p201. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:53, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The church referred to in Grove is the Church on the Hill, a different building. And can we please try to stick to academic or official sources? Per WP:RS, those take precedence over travel guides, which are not scholarly works (despite at least some scholarly material about this topic existing) and really have no business being cited in an encyclopedia. - Biruitorul ^Talk 00:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus was clearly against this. Number 57 21:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

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Monastery Church, Sighișoara → Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara) – Yes, per the consensus in the last RM and UE which says we ought to use a direct translation of the name, and per UCN which is shown by the sources given in the last RM. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - for starters, we've largely (though imperfectly) moved from s-cedilla to the correct s-comma for Romanian place names, so I naturally prefer Sighișoara over Sighişoara.
• Second, Darkness Shines is being deliberately obscurantist when he vaguely refers to "sources given in the last RM" as supporting a move to his proposed title. No, those sources do not, in fact, support such a move.
  • The Romanian Culture Ministry and Sighișoara City Hall both use "Monastery Church".
  • Crăciun calls it "the Dominican convent of Sighișoara", while Spinei merely mentions an abbey in Sighișoara.
  • These academic and official sources take precedence over the "freelance photojournalist and translator"-penned potted history adduced as evidence by Darkness Shines.
• In sum, insofar as the church is referred to by a name, it is quite simply "Monastery Church", the current title. Thus, there is no compelling reason to move. - Biruitorul ^Talk 00:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Since the last rename I had the chance to ask a Transylvanian Saxon native to Sighisoara about how did they call it in the past. They used simply "Kloster Kirche" = "Monastery Church". He didn't recall another more specific name.. --Codrin.B (talk) 20:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Contested speedy deletion under WP:G7 and Template:Hang on

An OK little article. Our good friend Darkness Shines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) may have taken temporary leave of his senses. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:15, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Not at all, stone cold sober at the moment, I have the right to have this deleted under G7, in medieval parlance, it is my noble right. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• I declined to delete it; it's not a right, because the license is irrevocable. I don;t really see the reason why it should be deleted, except dissatisfaction with the result of a requested move. DGG ( talk ) 22:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Still Dominican?

The article currently says that it is "a Gothic church belonging to the Dominican Order in Sighişoara". Is it still run by Dominicans, despite the monastery itself having been demolished in the 19th century? I'm not seeing anything to that effect in the sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

According to this article in Romanian, the Dominican monks have been chased away during reformation.--Codrin.B (talk) 21:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, so it's no longer even catholic, is it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:51, 23 November 2014 (UTC)