Talk:Monkstown, County Antrim

Location

Unable to provide any evidence that the townland of Monkstown is one and the same as the settlement. There is a widespread belief in the area that the settlement of Monkstown is actually located in a different townland, referred to locally as "Cloughfern"

Name

Circular reference to site that gaelicises English place names. This reference is to a townland not the village. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.14.23 (talk) 18:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC) Unless you can provide evidence of the etymology of the name "Monkstown" in County Antrim rather than one referring to a townland and a specfic example of it's historic use in this area, beyond a reference to a site that allows you to request gaelic equivalents of place names then I'll keep removing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.14.23 (talk) 11:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The Placenames Database of Ireland does not simply Gaelicise English placenames. The vast majority of placenames in Ireland are derived from Irish and have been Anglicised (example "Béal Feirste" > "Belfast").

In the case of Monkstown, the original Irish name was "Baile na Manach" which means "town of monks". By 1605 this had been Anglicised as "Ballynamanagh" and by 1706 had been changed to "Monkstown". This is all in the archival records.

The website is perfectly clear which Monkstown it's referring to – the one in County Antrim, barony of Belfast Lower, parish of Carnmoney. It's also clearly referring to the settlement, since that's where you'll find post offices. This is the only place called Monkstown in Northern Ireland. ~Asarlaí 11:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Disingenuous nonsense. Are you really claiming that in the dates 1605 and 1706 there was a Post Office in the townland of Monkstown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.149 (talk) 12:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed anything of the sort, and neither does the website. ~Asarlaí 15:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You have not provided any primary evidence to support your assertion that the townland of Monkstown and the current settlement are one and the same. The documents you keep referring to are not contemporary to the time period this supposed change happened. There is no evidence to support your view that the village of Monkstown now has ever been known by any name other than "Monkstown". To suggest otherwise is simply wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.14.23 (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Still no evidence to support the claim that the village of Monkstown was ever called anything else, or that the townland and the current settlement are one and the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.16.203 (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Superfopp keeps suggesting that the village and the townland are one and the same. There is no evidence to support this claim. Clearly this continued vandalism is based not on anything as important as the facts. Provide primary evidence that the townland and the current settlement are one and the same. BTW referring, as you continually do to this partial website whose role is to de-Anglicise Ireland to fit some politically motivated didactic, says much about your motivation. Clearly the truth and accuracy are of much lower priority than the pursuit of your agenda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.16.203 (talk) 11:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The PDI is widely seen as a reliable source. It's not some sort of conspiracy to "de-Anglicise Ireland" by... *gasp*... translating and tracing the history of placenames. Its purpose is outlined here.
The PDI shows that there is only one place called Monkstown in Northern Ireland, and that it's a townland in County Antrim. This townland is in the barony of Belfast Lower and the parish of Carnmoney. Funny enough, that's also where "the village" is located.
Now, if we look at an old Ordnance Survey map and compare it with a modern map, we can see that "the village" is indeed within the townland of the same name.
I should also point out that you've failed to show me any evidence that "the village" of Monkstown even has clear-cut boundaries in the first place. ~Asarlaí 20:12, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

It allocates "gaelicised" names approved by some other spurious organisation. Hardly a credible, primary source. Further I think that you've demonstrated my point much more succinctly than I could. You are imposing "gaelic" place name on a village on the presumption that it and the townland name are interchangeable. Has the current village of Monkstown ever been called by the "gaelic" name? BTW the boundaries of the village are quite clear. The railway line bounds the eastern, northern and southern side and is bounded by the Monkstown Road on the west. Which you'd know if you'd ever been near the place. If you want to put an thing here about the townland of Monkstown complete with it's supposed "gaelic" etymology then knock yourself out. But until or unless you provide primary evidence that the village has ever been called by this "gaelic" name or the English version "Ballynamanagh"(sic) then I will keep reverting it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.16.203 (talk) 15:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Do any of the keyboard historians who are editing this page so that if fits, not with the facts, rather with their attempts to shoehorn their view of history read this? I'll be blunt. So far there is not one single shred of evidence to support the assertion (and assertion is all that it is) that the village of Monkstown was ever called "Ballynamanagh"(sic). But rather than accept this, or acknowledge the possibility, they've engaged in a childish attempt to misappropriate the supposed etymology of a townland and impose it onto the settlement. But then I forget. The facts in Northern Ireland are less important to some than peddling a revisionist re-imagining. Accuracy and precision abandoned, contorted to fit the current narrative. There's a word for it. Pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psidivision (talk • contribs) 15:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you even read any of the references which have been added?Bjmullan (talk) 15:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It would be a bit rich of me to point the fingers at others, if was guilty of the same thing. The PDI reference is a red herring. It is quite clear that it refers to the "townland" not a village. Similarly with the three references you've posted (very interesting BTW that archive looks like it's worth a closer investigation). So far all the evidence points to the townland being called Ballynamanagh derived from the gaelic version I do not dispute that. I dispute whether is valid to extend this to the village itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psidivision (talk • contribs) 15:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC) I know that there is a history of the area (off line I'm afraid) kicking around. I'll see if I can lay my hands on it. In the meantime, and rather than engage in a counter productive edit war I'll revert the article to your last edit. Agreed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psidivision (talk • contribs) 15:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. This is what WP is build on, consensus :) Bjmullan (talk) 17:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nortel

Given that Nortel is defunct, I'm assuming the site in Doagh Road has closed. Can anyone with local knowledge confirm and change the mention on this page? I'd be curious to find out what's become of the site. Rojomoke (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (former Nortel employee)