Talk:Monroy (surname)
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Copyediting, unreliable sources, original research
editIn late November, @Tacyarg created a tag for copyediting and references needed. I deleted a paragraph that seemed speculative about the origin of the Monroy surname, which removed the English errors and need for sources cited, which was then added back by the editor @Patodonald1818 along with some sources. The paragraph still needs copyediting, so I'm restoring that tag. Additionally, the sources are unreliable, and even if they were reliable they are completely contradictory to each other, with sources variously identifying France, Spain, and Scotland as origins (with different dates) to a degree not reflected by text added by Patodonald1818. I'm adding the unreliable sources tag until this is resolved, and I believe removing the speculation on the surname's origin is the right course of action until reliable sources can be provided that back up the claims. Trikekus (talk) 14:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Unreliable sources
edithttps://www.houseofnames.com/monroy-family-crest Monroy History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms
This is not an academic source. The cited information now contains reference from the Dictionary of American Family Names, ancestry links this source as is available to view online through them.
Dictionary of American Family Names (1 ed.)
Publisher: Oxford University Press
Print ISBN-13:9780195081374
"Spanish: habitational name from Monroy (‘red mountain’), a place in Cáceres province."
Oxford Reference, which has no mention of French, Scottish origins as it is not derived from Roy. The same occurrence happens with surnames like "Pomeroy" where you would assume that you see "Pome" & "Roy" it is not. Knight De Roy (talk) 12:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
The sources that you add only say that there is a city in Spain called Monroy, a city that Wikipedia also has an article on, but your sources do not say that the etymology Mon and Roy are Spanish, you say that it means red mountain, in Spanish mountain is monte or montaña and red is rojo, it is not mon roy. The sources you cite may be academic, but they are wrong, because the only mention they make is of the city of Monroy, a city that has an etymology that is not Spanish, because it was founded by non-Spanish foreigners, which which is mentioned in the sources you debunk.
The surname Monroy has a city in Spain, because it was created by people of another origin, but the etymology of said surname is not Spanish. In Germany there was a family that bore the surname Monroy, and to say that it is a Spanish surname would be to assume that they were Spaniards who came to live in that country. In the same article that I will leave you as a source, it is specified that they were descendants of French Huguenots Protestants, which is why they were not Spanish, I leave you the German Wikipedia article with your own external sources.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroy_(Adelsgeschlecht)
Some references about the French Huguenots with Monroy last name:
https://www.hugenotten.de/gesellschaft/_pdf/03-2008.pdf
https://www.hugenotten.de/gesellschaft/_pdf/04-2015.pdf
http://hugenottenbibliothek.de/detail.php?lang=de&id=826
Heraldrys Institute of Rome:
https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/lang/es/cognomi/Monroy/idc/709770/
A spanish source about the French origin of Monroy:
Historical-Cultural Association El Bezudo Monroy (Cáceres) Asociación Histórico-Cultural El Bezudo Monroy (Cáceres), the City of Monroy:
https://www.asociacionelbezudo.com/historia.htm
Translation to English: https://www-asociacionelbezudo-com.translate.goog/historia.htm?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp
The Placentine Blas Xil de Ocampo in his manuscript on the Monroy lineage, National Library sig. 2242 of 1650, traces the origin of this surname, like many ancient chroniclers, to the descendants of Vigil de Monroy, National Library of Spain, Hispanic Digital Library (Biblioteca Nacional de España, Biblioteca Digital Hispánica) TitlePrinciple of the noble and illustrious ancient lineage of the Monroyes and their origin and prosapia [Manuscript] Date between 1601 and 1700? Edition data 17th century Type of Document Manuscript Physical description 272 h.:il.;21x17cm by Blas Gil de Ocampo and other texts on the lineage of the Monroyes and the life of Alonso de Monroy:
https://bdh.bne.es/bnesearch/detalle/bdh0000087013
On page 5 of this old manuscript there is a reference to a French nobleman named Monroy who received refuge from King Pelayo of Spain. The city of Monroy in Spain is derived from this French knight, a city founded by a Frenchman.
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/viewer.vm?id=0000087013&page=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patodonald1818 (talk • contribs) 23:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Regarding Pomeroy, I have found that it is an English surname with certain French origins, derived from Norman English. The fact that there are not enough sources does not mean that Monroy is a Spanish surname, although it has quite a distribution in Spain, it also has distribution in the United States, South America, Central America, other countries and Italy, but its etymology origin is not Spanish, It's simple logic. In Spain there is the surname Borbón, which derives from Borbone in French, however it is not originally a Spanish surname, it is a surname of French origin, even if the monarchs were born in Spain or speak Spanish. It is something similar to the example that I am trying to give you, at the same time it is against Wikipedia's rules to delete sources from an article, I do not delete the sources that you add, and even with the sources that you add, these sources do not explain that it is a Spanish etymology, they only talk about the municipality of Monroy, which arose with that name by non-Spanish immigrants, something that one of my sources says, academic or not, says something that other sources do not say.
About of academic sources, this encyclopedia too use sources of religions, governments and companies, and these not always must academic, but is possible complement the academic sources with other type of sources, because when exist information about a government or religion not always everything is 100% academic.
Thank you for your message.
A cordial greeting.--Patodonald1818 (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
- https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/71089/nuno-perez-de-monroy
- Diccionario Biográfico electrónico
- "The oldest references to the important Monroy lineage have little to do with history and much to do with legend, transmitted mainly by the family chronicler, Alonso Maldonado. According to this author, the origin of this lineage can be found in a French knight named Vigil de Monroy who had to flee his land and who was with Don Pelayo in the famous battle of Covadonga. More reliable seems to be the reference that places the origin of the Monroy in Pedro Fernández Vigil, who arrived in Plasencia in 1180, with other settlers, after the conquest of the city.
- In any case, the true creators of the noble house were the brothers Nuño and Hernán Pérez de Monroy, sons of Pedro Fernández de Monroy and his wife Mayor de Saavedra: "The Monroys come from Hernán Pérez de Monrroi, brother of Don Nuño, abbot of Santander, of whom the chronicle of the kings Don Fernando IV and Don Alfonso II makes mention."
- https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/95201/fernan-perez-de-monroy
- Fernan Perez de Monroy
- "He was the son of Pedro Fernández de Monroy and Mayor Saavedra, great-grandson of the first master of the Order of Santiago Pedro Fernández de Monroy or de Fuentencalada (1170-1184) and brother of the abbot of Santander and confidant of María de Molina Nuño Pérez de Monroy, lord of Valverde de la Vera and Jarandilla de la Vera (Cáceres). He was born in Plasencia during the reign of Alfonso X and had some influence at Court under Sancho IV, Fernando IV and Alfonso XI, always under the protection of María de Molina, of whom he was chief cupbearer. He married Estefanía Rodríguez."
- "On 21 April 1309 Ferdinand IV created the lordship of Monroy by allowing Fernán to populate it (“I grant you and you that you may populate one hundred inhabitants in our place called Monroy, who are from the land of the Hórdenes or from other lords whatever exception to my rule”)"
- SPANISH
- ----------------------------------
- Dictionary of American Family Names (1 ed.)
- Publisher: Oxford University Press
- "The Dictionary of American Family Names contains more than 70,000 of the most commonly occurring surnames in the United States, giving their comparative frequencies, linguistic and historical explanations, selected associated forenames, and occasional genealogical notes. The product of a ten-year research project gathering the contributions of thirty linguistic consultants led by Editor in Chief Patrick Hanks, it explains the meanings—some intuitive, some amusing, and some quite surprising—of the family names for more than 90 percent of the U.S. population."
- "Spanish: habitational name from Monroy (‘red mountain’), a place in Cáceres province."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Now you said : "The sources you cite may be academic, but they are wrong."
- These are from experts in linguistics and you say they are wrong? I don't know what you are talking about, but that is a red flag as you are not an expert and to say they are wrong is ridiculous. Knight De Roy (talk) 04:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
With all due respect, there is a lot of information that could be part of legends and that is not the reason it is not cited in articles, for example Romulus and Remus or the Trojan War. I left you references, if you say that it seems like a "legend", then it means that you are ignoring an ancient manuscript that mentions the French origin of that surname, you are also appealing to the fallacy of authority of experts and that I am not an expert, I am not an expert, but you are not an expert either and I tell you this with all due respect, and you say that what I said is "ridiculous", which is a breach of etiquette and civility on Wikipedia, I also left you information from French Huguenots surname Monroy in Germany, they are not a legend and they were not Spanish, and the fact that your references do not mention it does not mean that it is false information, which is why there are multiple books and sources, I gave you other different academic sources.
In this article both origins can be perfectly combined for Monroy, the one you add and the ones I add, that is why I wrote at the time that it is an last name with varied origins
Greetings.--Patodonald1818 (talk) 04:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- "I left you references, if you say that it seems like a 'legend'"
- - I'm not, experts are saying through academic sources.
- "I am not an expert, but you are not an expert either and I tell you this with all due respect, and you say that what I said is "ridiculous", which is a breach of etiquette and civility on Wikipedia."
- - There is no breach of etiquette, you have attempted to pass off non academic sources including "House of Names" and made an attempt to report to administrators which was found to be in no violation. To call it ridiculous is completely acceptable.
- You literally were calling an expert, academic dictionary on surname history WRONG. That IS ridiculous.
- "were not Spanish, and the fact that your references do not mention it does not mean that it is false information,"
- - Please do research into surname dictionaries and how many experts are involved in the making of them. These are some of the leading experts in Onomastics. They gave the origin of the surname from research as Spanish.
- This is enough proof and the fact you have tried to repeatedly install non academic sources as legitimate information which it is not. Now you are saying it is not Spanish when academic sources and experts say IT IS. Knight De Roy (talk) 12:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately it seems that it will not be possible to reach an agreement with you and a consensus, because you say that Roy means red, when in Spanish there is no word roy to name that red color, red in spanish is rojo, in Spanish the word for call mountains is montaña o monte not mon, then don't must exist debate seem, it is that your sources say and it should be accepted without reflexion. Even so, assuming that it means red mountain, where does that etymology come from? It cannot be Spanish, they say it is red mountain, but don't exist in Spanish words like mon and roy, I tell you this as a native Spanish speaker, although, I suppose according to your logic that I should ignore these facts, but in Spanish red=rojo and mountain= montaña, and you have already called me ridiculous twice, but I sent you many more sources. --Patodonald1818 (talk) 13:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Once again...
- One, I am NOT making the claims, experts are.
- Two, native Spanish speaker does not suddenly make the experts who study these surnames wrong. Many ARE Spanish speakers as well.
- Three, I NEVER called you ridiculous. I said claiming that they are wrong while not being an expert in the field IS ridiculous, big difference. Knight De Roy (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
You are invoking to "experts" (authority fallacy) because they don't are writing in this talk, then according you and these "experts", they are practically owners of the absolute truth, the ancient historical manuscripts have no historical value and linguistic. For you not have importance if existed a family of French Huguenots named Monroy, who magically according to you and these "experts" they must have been "Spanish", despite that they never was Spanish people. --Patodonald1818 (talk) 17:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- People migrate, you will find surnames from many different cultures within different borders.
- I am invoking experts, and multiple sources that say Spanish. They are experts in surname origins and do their research in an accredited way. You tried to put "House of Names" as a source and that is why we have a problem. Knight De Roy (talk) 12:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Of course people migrate, but the academic German sources about the Protestant Frenchs Huguenot Monroy say they were French, it doesn't mention Spanish. I am invoking an ancient manuscript from National Library of Spain, Hispanic Digital Library that have support of European Union, about a French knight called Monroy in Spain, further I am invoking multiple German academic sources from experts too on the French origin of Monroy surname, because in the sources say that they were French Protestant Huguenots, not Spanish.
In the article it is possible to describe that according to certain sources it would have French origin and would mean my king, and that according to other sources (your sources) meaning red mountain and would be Spanish. It's as easy as reaching an agreement between us and we enrich the article, and as for House of Names, I will not use that source again.--Patodonald1818 (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- "But the academic German sources about the Protestant Frenchs Huguenot Monroy say they were French."
- They say that these INDIVIDUALS were French, not that the surname IS French. Big difference, that is why I said people migrate and Spanish people migrate to France and vice-versa. The surname is Spanish as defined by linguistic experts who also are experts in Onomastics and research these names.
- I will give you an example: Rudolf Roy, was a GERMAN tank commander in WWII.
- https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/13202/Roy-Rudolf-Waffen-SS.htm
- He was born in Berlin, Germany. Went to school in Germany, spoke German, fought for Germany & died for Germany. He was German, but his surname is not German. We don't suddenly dismiss his French origin surname and say it is German.
- "I am invoking an ancient manuscript from National Library of Spain, Hispanic Digital Library that have support of European Union, about a French knight called Monroy in Spain."
- It was written in the 1600-1700's, and please see the Spanish Biographical Dictionary published by the Royal Academy of History in Spain.
- And I am citing:
- El Diccionario biográfico español : The Spanish Biographical Dictionary is a biographical dictionary published by the Royal Academy of History
- - More than 50,000 characters from the History of Spain
- - 2,700 years of history through its protagonists
- - Worldwide geographical scope, with special attention to all territories that, in addition to the Peninsula, formed part of the Spanish Administration
- - 2,000 areas of activity
- - 4,500 authors, Spanish and foreign
- - 500 national and international scientific institutions
- Quote once again: "The oldest references to the important Monroy lineage have little to do with history and much to do with legend, transmitted mainly by the family chronicler, Alonso Maldonado. According to this author, the origin of this lineage can be found in a French knight named Vigil de Monroy who had to flee his land and who was with Don Pelayo in the famous battle of Covadonga. More reliable seems to be the reference that places the origin of the Monroy in Pedro Fernández Vigil, who arrived in Plasencia in 1180, with other settlers, after the conquest of the city."
- We have language and surnames experts who call it Spanish, define it as such and give the origin. We also know that Spanish descends from Romance language as well and we have such dialects like Catalan, which is a Romance language from the Neo-Latin group. The fact you see Mon & Roy does not suddenly mean it comes directly from the French "Mon" & "Roy". To cite "Roy" here which is a Norman surname in France is not where this name came from. Pomeroy was another surname that demonstrated that it is NOT Pome & Roy, but the spelling is. Knight De Roy (talk) 21:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, but where are your sources that prove that these French Huguenots got a possible Spanish surname? Because if the last name is Spanish according to your sources, you should be able to show me that those Huguenots come from Spain where got this surname, the Huguenots have historically been a French group.
- "According to this author, the origin of this lineage can be found in a French knight named Vigil de Monroy who had to flee his land and who was with Don Pelayo in the famous battle of Covadonga. More reliable seems to be the reference that places the origin of the Monroy in Pedro Fernández Vigil, who arrived in Plasencia in 1180, with other settlers, after the conquest of the city.",
- I tell you again is the source, there speak about a French knight who is the origin. You don't believe in this fact, but the reference exist. If exist two versions is possible explain it with the Vigil of Monroy and with Pedro Fernández, that don't meaning that this source don't have value, because many times in the history exist two versions of a fact, especially when more in the past happened facts, and the ancient manuscript say caballero francés (French knight), and is a historical document It was written in the 1600-1700', in fact many times the ancient documents have a higher historical value for historians. --Patodonald1818 (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, you are not understanding what is being said...
- "Okay, but where are your sources that prove that these French Huguenots got a possible Spanish surname? Because if the last name is Spanish according to your sources, you should be able to show me that those Huguenots come from Spain where got this surname, the Huguenots have historically been a French group."
- 1. The surname is not French, full stop. It is a Spanish surname, based upon Surname Dictionary Sources and is not French or Scottish for that matter, otherwise they would have put it as such. Because a person born in France or wherever has the name does NOT mean it is that origin. We are going in circles here trying to explain that to you. I have already quoted the SURNAME DICTIONARY REFERENCE.
- Dictionary of American Family Names (1 ed.)
- Publisher: Oxford University Press
- Print ISBN-13:9780195081374
- "Spanish: habitational name from Monroy (‘red mountain’), a place in Cáceres province."
- Oxford Reference, which has no mention of French, Scottish origins.
- "historical document It was written in the 1600-1700"
- 2. ONE individual, who other sources say is not reliable and say that is NOT the ORIGIN of the surname. Other references refute this and give SPANISH origin.
- This is not a French, or Scottish surname. You innapropriately putting "Roy" sources here which is a seperate surname AND "House of Names" AND you even had things like this in the article:
- "Similar surnames include Conroy and Fitzroy."
- ???????? What
- The article has been corrected with academic sources that are collaborated with the Surname Dictionary Source that states Spanish origin. This is not one individual claiming in the 1600-1700's a legend story, this is actual research by modern day experts that say otherwise.
- Spanish Biographical Dictionary published by the Royal Academy of History in Spain.
- - Refute the Knight story
- - Give Spanish origin
- - Academic with multiple experts (Not one individual claiming legend).
- We are not including non-academic sources that defy the academic sources. The origin of the surname is Spanish and that is what the article will include. Knight De Roy (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
- Then you don't will answer my questions using references, like you said "The surname is not French, full stop". Patodonald1818 (talk) 00:14, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- By the way, back in 2022 another user previously had flagged this article as having UNRELIABLE sources that you kept editing in. So, this is a repeated pattern it seems. We are keeping the article with the academic sources that state its origin as Spanish. Knight De Roy (talk) 00:38, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Then you don't will answer my questions using references, like you said "The surname is not French, full stop". Patodonald1818 (talk) 00:14, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Your sources used in this article no warranties or representations. The same terms and conditions are evidents, then before of critic my sources, please consider it first, I quote:
"Disclaimer Oxford University Press Legal Notice Updated on: 26 June 2014 Effective from: 26 June 2014 "Oxford University Press makes no warranties or representations of any kind concerning the accuracy or suitability of the information contained on this website for any purpose. All such information is provided "as is" and with specific disclaimer of any warranties of merchantability, fitness for purpose, title and/or non-infringement. Oxford University Press makes no warranties or representations of any kind that the services provided by this Website will be uninterrupted , error-free or that the website or the server that hosts the Website are free from viruses or other forms of harmful computer code":
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Greetings.--Patodonald1818 (talk) 02:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Did you seriously just post the Disclaimers?
- What are you doing? Do you even know what you are doing at this point?
- I would consider this spam now, any further and a report of this will have to be made. Knight De Roy (talk) 04:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- "I would consider this spam now, any further and a report of this will have to be made". Just are disclaimers about your sources of experts, they say that in his own websites. Patodonald1818 (talk) 05:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)