Talk:Monument Park (Yankee Stadium)

Players?

The fourth paragraph starts out "The following players". However, not everyone listed played Major League Baseball (or, in the case of people like Bob Sheppard, played any professional baseball at all). Can we find a better word than "players"?--69.105.94.170 (talk) 13:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

How about "players and other Yankees personnel"? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Miller Huggins Monument

The date for the dedication of the Huggins monument is the same as the date for his plaque, while others that never had a plaque don't include a plaque dedication date. Then when I went in to change this, I found that despite being the first to recieve this honor, and being listed as the first plaque, he is listed as the 5th monument. What is the deal here?

Steinbrenner

I can't tell if it's a plaque or a monument. It resembles a plaque, but there does seem to be some sort of base. I think we should hash it out here to avoid a possible edit war. --Muboshgu (talk) 22:37, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I have an Iron Clad Source here.

[1]

While the beginning of the article calls it a plaque, the video with Yankee announcers calls it a Monument. "The Yankees held a special ceremony before the game, remembering owner George Steinbrenner and unveiling his monument." It is also referred to as the seventh in Monument Park. The others being Huggins, Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle, DiMaggio, & the 9/11 monument. The above is worded as such.

"Five other monuments have been placed for Yankees players or managers -- Miller Huggins (1932), Lou Gehrig (1941), Babe Ruth (1949), Mickey Mantle (1996) and Joe DiMaggio (1999) -- and one was dedicated to commemorate those lost in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

There are also 24 plaques displayed in Monument Park, honoring players, managers, owners and executives, public-address and broadcasting personnel, papal visits and one related to the Yankees' insignia."

Notice how it is worded There are also 24 plaques.

It is quite clear that this in intended to not be just a plaque, but a monument.

If you think about it, the other monuments are really plaques in their own right, that just happen to be mounted to red granite bases. Well if you look at the Steinbrenner one, it too like the others is mounted to a giant red granite base. Not like the plaques that are just hanging on the wall.

I think my source speaks for itself. It being from Yankees.com, I would say that is the most definitive source.--Subman758 (talk) 04:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

A lot of sources are calling it a "monument" and then pointing out that it's a plaque, albeit a huge one. You're running into a semantics problem here, because every object in Monument Park is a "monument" in the broader sense. The question might be, where did this article get the info distinguishing a "monument" from a "plaque"? Is it an editorial decision, or does it have a source? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:33, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The initial announcement of the Steinbrenner memorial called it a monument. [2] This makes sense as the tradition is to only give "monuments" posthumously, while plaques may be dedicated to those who are still alive. Now as I peruse present sources, authors seem to be using the terms "plaque" and "monument" interchangeably because I suspect that they, like us, don't know what to make of this. --Muboshgu (talk) 13:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's a picture of the plaque, with Mariano Rivera reading it:[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The Monument article indicates any kind of memorial can be considered a "monument", so technically everything in Monument Park is a monument. In this article, the editors are trying to distinguish the plaques from the free-standing objects that look like Headstones. Although the Steinbrenner plaque appears to have some kind of supporting structure under it, the plaque is not free-standing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Meanwhile the New York Yankees have officially stated it is a Monument.

A few organizations, important people that refer to it as a monument.

• The New York Yankees[4]
• YES Network[5]
• ESPN[6]
• Fox Sports Network[7]
• The New York Daily News[8][9]
• The New York Post[10]
• Pittsburgh Tribune-Review[11]
• The New York Times[12]
• USA Today[13]
• The Los Angeles Times[14]
• Reuters[15]
• Hal Steinbrenner
• Hank Steinbrenner
• John Sterling
• Alex Rodriguez
• Derek Jeter

--Subman758 (talk) 16:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

What's the distinction between a "monument" and "not-a-monument", within an exhibit that's officially titled "Monument Park"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

My guess Bugs is that the to the Yankees, that a plaque is just a plaque, while the Monuments are the plaques mounted to the Red Granite markers. There are seven such markers Huggins, Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle, DiMaggio, 9/11, and now Steinbrenner. Monument park, and Yankee Stadium belong to the Yankees. We should refer to it as they do. Otherwise we are just making our own shit up, based off our own opinions, and that is not what Wikipedia is about. Also; nowhere is it written that all monuments, must be identical in shape, and or size.

If the Yankees call it a Monument, then it is just that, a Monument.--Subman758 (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that as such, although even the so-called "iron-clad" article cited earlier was titled "Plaque", not "Monument". It's a flat thing affixed to the wall, and that thing underneath is probably for support as it probably weighs a ton. Obviously, the undisputed "monuments" also have plaques, except they are affixed to three-dimensional objects rather than being nailed to a wall. More generally, the article makes certain statements about what the Yankees allegedly consider to be "monuments". I think we need a definitive source, not just on Steinbrenner, but on Monument Park in general. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Who says a Monument is required to be three dimensional? As I said the Yankees call it a Monument, and it belongs to them so therefore it is a monument. Take the Washington Monument for instance. It is not really a monument at all, it is the tallest Obelisk in the world. However we call it a Monument.--Subman758 (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Read the Monument article. Also, from what I can see in the article, the statements about what constitute a "monument", and how a "monument" is more significant than a "plaque", etc., are entirely unsourced. It sounds like someone's guesswork, i.e. "original research". Someone needs to find a definitive source on how the Yankees regard not just the Steinbrenner object, but every object in Monument Park. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Bugs I think you need to read up on the Monument article yourself.

Here is the very first line from that article.

"A monument is a type of structure either explicitly created to commemorate a person or important event or which has become important to a social group as a part of their remembrance of past events."

More importantly a Cenotaph which is what the Monuments in Monument Park really are, is a type of Monument.

The first line from the Cenotaph article states the following.

"A cenotaph is a tomb or a monument erected in honor of a person, group of persons, animals or groups of animals whose remains are elsewhere."

Now can we just end this stupid debate, and call the Monuments in Monument Park, including Steinbrenner's, what the New York Yankees intended them to be called. MONUMENTS!!!

Further the Yankees do not need to justify to you, or to anyone for that matter how they came to call them Monuments. They own them, and can call them what they want to. If they wanted to call it Plaque Park they would have, but they obviously chose not to call it that.--Subman758 (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The article claims that there are distinctions in Monument Park between "plaques" and "monuments". Where is that coming from? It has no source. I don't dispute that the Yankees are calling the Steinbrenner thing a "monument". I'm questioning the article's premise that some things are monuments and some are not. What is the basis for the article's claim to that effect? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think I have what you need. Take a look at the Nonbuilding structure article. I think you will agree that the seven monuments in monument park are structures in that they had to be constructed. while as the plaques were simply made from a mold. Therefore the seven monuments qualify as Nonbuilding structures, while that plaques do not.--Subman758 (talk) 03:32, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

No, what we need is a YANKEES SOURCE defining what THEY consider "monuments" to be, and info to either confirm or refute the UNCITED comments made in the article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Since this didn't reach a conclusion - here's an article about the Monument Park 'move' from mlb.com ([16]) that clearly indicates the 6 monuments (and that the rest are plaques) - doesn't help us with Steinbrenner - but solves the rest. Blahblah32blahblah (talk) 13:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

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