Talk:Morfydd Llwyn Owen

Which University?

Until yesterday we had:

• Owen won a scholarship to study at Cardiff University

I changed it with the comment 'give contemporary name', to:

• Owen won a scholarship to study at the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire (now Cardiff University)

Then Almanacer changed it, with the comment 'correction as per cited sources - University refers to University of Wales of which Cardiff Uni was a part'

• Owen won a scholarship to study at University College, Cardiff

The cited source is not available online, but we should not allow the biography of a neurologist to contradict the well-established history of Cardiff University. According to our article, Cardiff University was:

• Founded in 1883 as the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire, it became one of the founding colleges of the University of Wales in 1893 [...] In 1972, the institution was renamed University College Cardiff.

From this is is clear that 'Cardiff University' and 'University College Cardiff' are anachronisms, and that when Owen was there it was called the 'University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire'. We could put 'University of Wales', but in this period this would probably be assumed to be the University College Wales, Aberystwyth. I will restore my text. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree "Cardiff University" was inappropriate. But all the cited sources - Cleaver, Maddox and Davies (2018), the most authoritative (which is online, qv the bibliography) - refer to "University College, Cardiff" in their texts presumably because, as you note, it was "one of the founding colleges of the University of Wales" from 1893 and is thus appropriately designated as a member college. WP content is required to represent such sources so please don't change it. Almanacer (talk) 17:55, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

But we also need to represent the authoritative sources on the university, including:

• The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which says "changing its name to University College Cardiff in 1972".[1]
• This is confirmed on the university's website[2]
• and by Archives Wales[3]
• and The Daily Telegraph.[4]
• The University of Wales, Cardiff Act 2004 confirms the name change without giving its date.[5]
• The title of a paper in 'Nature' confirms that the old name was in use in 1964.[6]
• The Student's Union notepaper in 1962 used the old name[7]
• A 1931 poster uses the old name, in the Twitter page of University's archives[8]

Verbcatcher (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Please refer to WP guidelines on original research which is what you have contributed here. To argue for let alone change the content, you need to find a reliable source which specifically links Morfydd Owen to the designation you are proposing in contrast to ALL the cited sources in the article which link her to "University College, Cardiff". Almanacer (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I am familiar with the No original research policy. We should rely on reliable sources, except where they assert something that is demonstrably false. We should not write untruths, even if they are supported by a good source.

I agree that Grove Music Online is a high-quality source. The URL in the article is dead, but this URL works, and it does indeed say that Morfydd Owen attended University College, Cardiff and was awarded a BMus in 1912. It is likely that the other sources cited in the article relied on this source or on earlier printed editions of Grove's.

We should be very wary of rejecting this source, but I have supplied multiple high-quality sources that demonstrate that the institution that was later called University College, Cardiff had a different name in 1912: 'University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire'. It is not credible to assert that there was another degree-awarding college in Cardiff in 1912. I suspect that before it officially became 'University College, Cardiff' it was informally known by this name, at least in the years leading up to 1972, and this may have mislead the contributor to Grove's.

Are you saying that it is WP:SYNTHESIS to assert that Owen attended the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire? I think this is a good summation of the available reliable sources. Please read WP:SYNTHNOT#SYNTH is not just any synthesis, WP:SYNTHNOT#SYNTH is not a rigid rule and WP:SYNTHNOT#SYNTH is not a policy. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not making that claim that that there was another degree-awarding college in Cardiff in 1912 or disputing the historical accuracy of "University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire" as the name of the instruction at the time Owen attended. I'm disputing your claim it is inaccurate ("demonstrably false") to have the more common truncated version "University College, Cardiff", as found in the sources cited in the article and indeed throughout historical and biographical texts covering this period (eg Professor Tom Davies on Ernest Jones, numerous entries in the Welsh Dictionary of Biography). So we're not talking here about the influence of the Grove article. Please note the importance of the comma in "University College, Cardiff" which distinguishes it from the post 1972 version "University College Cardiff" (no comma). There is now a link to the Cardiff University article which should clear up any confusion. Almanacer (talk) 12:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

@Almanacer: earlier in this discussion you asked for a reliable source that uses 'University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire'. The Dictionary of Welsh Biography uses this name.[9]

I think we are getting closer. You now accept that, when taken together, the reliable sources show that Owen attended a college whose formal name was 'University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire'. I agree that the college was known as 'University College, Cardiff' or 'University College Cardiff' before the formal name change in 1972. However, I think that either name is anachronistic for 1912. The University's records indicate the name ‘University College Cardiff’ had appeared on published material since the early 1960s.[10]

I would not oppose a more modern form of the name for Neil Kinnock, who studied there in the 1960s. I suspect that the newer name was increasingly used after about 1950, partly based on objection to the term 'Wales and Monmouthshire'. Are you aware of any earlier sources that use the shortened name?

This is largely an issue of editorial judgement. We should ideally use the usual name in use at the time, and if we cannot reliably establish this then we should use the formal name. I made a Google search for 'University College, Cardiff' in the The Dictionary of Welsh Biography, and the first few entries are:[11]

• Viriamu Jones (1856-1901) - 'first principal of the University College, Cardiff'[12]
• Alun Hoddinnott (1929-2008) 'gained a scholarship to the University College in Cardiff' (in 1946)[13]
• John Ithel Jones (1911-1980) 'already a student in the University College of Cardiff when he was accepted in 1930 by the South Wales Baptist College'[14]
• Sir James Rees (1883-1967) 'Principal of the University College at Cardiff'[15]
• Lewis Henry (1889-1968) 'From 1918 to 1921 he was an assistant lecturer in the Welsh dept. , university college Cardiff'
• Thomas Chance (1872-1954) 'and then at the Baptist College and University College , Cardiff , where he graduated B.A. in 1898'[16]

This shows that the DWB uses several names.

Both 'University College, Cardiff' and 'University College Cardiff' suggest that this was the name of the college. Adding 'the', 'in' or 'at' suggests that Cardiff was the location of the college, and not necessarily part of its name.

I now propose the University College in Cardiff. We should link to the redirect at University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire, in case that becomes a stand-alone article. Are you ok with this? Verbcatcher (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes OK by me. Thanks for the Grove link. Almanacer (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Classification of works

I am doubtful of this phrase:

• Song settings (with authors in brackets) unless otherwise stated

I suspect that some of the "unless otherwise stated" are not song settings. Some are probably hymns.

• Richard and Pen Ucha − hymnary.org lists these as hymn tunes by Morfydd Owen,[17] File:Pen Ucha by Morfydd Llwyn Owen.jpg looks like hymn tune, and the words are by the hymn writer William Williams Pantycelyn.
• Sarah − Named as a hymn tune in The Dictionary of Welsh Biography,[18] and words are by William Williams Pantycelyn
• Llwyn Owen − Words by William Williams Pantycelyn, so probably a hymn.
• Treforest, Calvary, William, Mary − The names sound like hymn tunes

Should we have separate lists for hymns, art songs, orchestral works, chamber music, etc? Verbcatcher (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes separate listings would be an improvement. Have modified the doubtful phrase pro tem. Almanacer (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Radio programmes

Three recent radio programs are currently available online, probably only in the UK.

• Davies, Rhian; Power, Steph; Trelawny, Petroc (20 July 2018). The life and music of Morfydd Owen (Audio) (Radio programme, Proms concert interval talk). BBC.
• Heywood-Thomas, Nicola (31 August 2018). Radio Wales Arts Show − Morfydd Owen (Audio) (Radio programme). BBC. {{cite AV media}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
• Elin Manahan Thomas, Elin (31 August 2018). Morfydd Llwyn Owen (Audio) (Radio programme) (in Welsh). BBC. {{cite AV media}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

I have used the first two of these as sources, but my knowledge of Welsh is inadequate for the third. Many BBC programs are only available online for a few weeks, if these stay up longer then we should add them under External links. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Verbcatcher. Overall you have made many welcome improvements to the article. However there are, obviously, problems with the time-limited broadcasts, and such broadcasts per se I would argue, which will cease to be verifiable sources if ever such a status could be claimed for them in the first place.

These citations will therefore need to be removed and/or replaced with acceptable texts which are in any case preferable as they would have provided the source material for the broadcasters who add nothing new to them. I have begun by adding a new citation to Dr T.G. Davies essay which is one such source. I have removed the phrase claiming Morfydd’s parents were not informed of the wedding plans (as opposed to the specific date of the ceremony which as the article states was changed by a day). This claim is not in any of the written sources I have seen, including by Dr Rhian Davies. Since Morfydd was with her parents the weekend before the ceremony it is not credible that she would have not informed them of the plans. Maddox (pp. 135-36) clearly states they had been. She may well have also told them of the plan to have a chapel ceremony at a future date (this took place in September which they attended). Almanacer (talk) 09:44, 27 September 2018 (UTC)