Talk:Moroccans

Infobox needs sober attention

The selection of personalities for the infobox should be revised. Leo Africanus is present but not, say, Ibn Tumart, al-Idrissi, al-Marrakushi, Abu Marwan Abd al-Malik I, and other possible candidates who have distinguished themselves in our pre-modern history. Also, where are the people who have distinguished themselves in modern times, like Mohammed V, Hassan 2, Allal Fassi, Mohammed Abed al-Jabri, Abdallah Laroui, Fatima Mernissi, Mahdi Elmandjra, and others like them?

How can there be space reserved for Moroccan sports people and omit Nawal El Moutawakel and Hicham El Guerrouj? And as for singers, there is “Shiri Maimon,” but not Abdelwahab Doukkali, Samira Said, Ismail Ahmad, Redoune? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IbnKhaldun2013 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I will perform a cleanup regarding those names soon. Also "Berber genetic identity", requires attention. Noteswork (talk) 16:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

over G Moroccan

While improving the use of the English language in this article, I didn't change this because I didn't understand it: "over G Moroccan samples are likely positive on the SNP G2a2b Haplogroup;". How can something be over a genetic variety? Perhaps a percentage was intended, like "Moroccan samples that are over 10% haplogroup G are likely positive ...". Art LaPella (talk) 06:14, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

About the Andalusians.

Andalusians was mixed arabs, berbrs and ibrians, so you can not say that we can't consider them arabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.138.234.193 (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

About genetic sciences

Content about genetic sciences should not constitute the main core of the article, since it overthrow all the other aspect such culture tradition history demography linguistic

Agile Falcon (talk) 11:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Belizean people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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The Moroccans photos supressed

Hi All I have just noticed that the sample photos pf Moroccans has just been supressed. Why exactly?

Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by HfedBo (talk • contribs) 13:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If you are referring to the gallery in the infobox, please read WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

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Terminology

There is currently a disruptive tug-of-war between IPs and now registered editors for the "right" designation of Arabic-speaking Moroccans ("Arabs" vs. "Arabized Berbers"). I strongly urge all involved editors to discuss this here.

There is general consensus that the great majority of Arabic-speaking Moroccans originate from the autochthonous inhabitants of the region, and became Arabic-speaking through language shift. Yet, ethnically, the designation "Arabized Berbers" is highly problematic, because this is not how Arabic-speaking Moroccans generally self-identify, nor how they are referred to in reliable sources. Even Gómez-Casado et al. refer to them as "Arabic-speaking Moroccans", while the UNHCR page uses the term "Arab Moroccans". Austronesier (talk) 20:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Skitash and Flesek: –Austronesier (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I would say the best choice is to leave the page the way it was before. There are many sources which break down the ethnic groups like this and refer to the majority as Arabs, not Arabized Berbers. Even genetically it wouldn't make sense to refer to all Moroccan Arabs as Arabized Berbers because most have a significant percentage of Arab DNA. Flesek just added a source which says "Most Arab Moroccans would be better described as Arabized Berbers" and decided to change that 67% Arab to Arabized Berber. Skitash (talk) 20:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

If you call 10 to 15% "significant" then sure, you're right. But most Moroccans don't identify as "ethnic" Arab. The reason why they're called "Arabs" is purely in linguistical terms, but ethnically or genetically this doesn't make sense. To apply the term "Arab" is outdated, because this has been debunked by genetic science. The reason why they were thought to be "Arabs" in the past is because of linguistics and culture. This faulty interpretation followed it's way to the Moroccan page as a result. It's one of the reasons why there is currently a huge de-arabization process going on in North-African countries, because the culture and history of Berber populations get distorted by spreading mis-information like this. I'd highly advice to look into the linguistics, culture, genetics and history of Moroccans. Even their common Arabic tongue highly distinguishable for Arabs in the Middle-East, because the language has been highly mixed with Berber. A result of the Arabization process upon Berber populations. Also, the reason why i left the 67% up, is because Arabised-Berbers make up around two thrids of the entire population. It's not accurate, but the 67% is close, so there was no reason for me to change it when the error of "Arabs" gets replaced by Arabised-Berbers. Flesek (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

You are only making unsourced claims right now which contradict the sources in this page. It is known that the majority of Moroccans ethnically identify as Arab and this is backed by several sources . Ethnic groups are people who identify with each other based on things they share, and this is clearly the case of Moroccans with other Arabs. Language, culture, history are all significant in determining ethnic groups, but you are currently relying on a genetic source which doesn't even back your 67% Arabized Berber claim and believe it's the only thing that can determine ethnic groups. People in an ethnic group don't necessarily have to share genetics to identify with each other, even though most Arabs have at least partial Arabian ancestry which they all share. If you have a genetic source which mentions percentages then put it in the correct section, it does not belong in the ethnic groups section. Skitash (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Don't worry, i'll pull out as many sources as you want. Lets start with the Wikipedia page called "genetic studies on Moroccans"

"Recent studies make clear no significant genetic differences exists between Arabic-speaking Moroccan populations and non-Arabic speaking Moroccan populations. The human leukocyte antigen HLA DNA data suggest that most Moroccans, both those of non-Arab ethnolinguistic identity and those of Arab ethnolinguistic identity, are of Berber origin, and that the genealogical true Arabs from Arabia who invaded North Africa and parts of Southern Europe did not substantially contribute to the gene pool. According to a 2000 article in European Journal of Human Genetics, Moroccans from North-Western Africa, although still with many differences, are genetically closer to Southern Europeans than to Sub-Saharan Africans of Bantu ethnicity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Moroccans

I have much more if this doesn't satisfy you. Flesek (talk) 22:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Your "evidence" is off-topic. Origin/ancestry ≠ ethnicity. Ethnic group identity is not established by lab results, but by socio-cultural context. –Austronesier (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Which "socio-cultural" context are you talking about exactly? Religon? Language? Ethnicity? Cultural practices? Because i can tell you that outside of religion, Moroccans don't have that much cultural similarities with Arabs, and the ones that do are mainly influenced by religion. In that context Indonesian people can be labeled as "Arabs" because they're muslim as well. When we look at Moroccans, they have very much differences to Arabs, wether it's simpel stuff like clothing, architecture, or more complex stuff like language, ethnicity, cultural practices...etc.

Lets take language for example. Moroccans don't speak "Arabic". Only in official circumstances like for example court, governmental issues, media,..etc standard Arabic is used. But in daily common tongue, Moroccans speak a local dialect called "Darija" which is basically a mix of Arabic and Berber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Arabic

Darija in itself has many different variations, which depends on each tribe located in different parts of Morocco.

So ask yourself this question, woud they rather fit in the category of "Arabized Berber" or instead in "Arabs", which is a very vague term that is outdated in it's traditional sense?

And if you think the answer is the latter, what do you think about Wikipedia pages that contradict this statement?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabized_Berber

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Moroccans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

Would you think it's ok if Wikipedia in itself has contradicting articles?

There is clearly an error here, which is now being identified and needs fixing. Flesek (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Please don't cite WP. Just provide a reliable source (ideally one that passes WP:SCHOLARSHIP) which explicitly talks about the ethnic composition of Morocco (NB not about genetic ancestry!). The latter is definitely more complex than the "Arab" vs. "Berber" dichotomy which many modern scholars consider a simplistic view rooted in the French colonial perception of Moroccan diversity. But replacing "Arab" with "Arabized Berber" isn't the solution, especially when it is based on an WP:OR-reading of sources provided so far. The correct solution is to provide a differentiated picture based on quality sources; many of the sources that are pivotal for the simple "Arab" vs. "Berbe"-model upheld here are abysmal (e.g. peoplegroups.org). –Austronesier (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The only reason i'm citing WP is to point out the flaws of this website by containing contradicting articles. But sure, i'll cite some actual sources as well.

"The Amazigh (Berber) peoples are the Indigenous Peoples of North Africa. The last census in Morocco (2016) estimated the number of Tamazight speakers at 28% of the population. However, Amazigh associations strongly contest this and instead claim a rate of 65 to 70%. This means that the Amazigh-speaking population could well number around 20 million in Morocco and around 30 million throughout North Africa and the Sahel as a whole. The results of the “Genographic Project”, based on DNA analysis, conducted by National Geographic since 2005 in the North African region, reveal a predominance of the “Berber genome” among the North African population, and specifically in Morocco.[1] This is a thesis strongly supported by the archaeological discoveries of Tafoughalt and Mount / Adrar Ighoud,[2] as well as that of Temara[3]."

https://www.iwgia.org/en/morocco.html

Now since you don't consider "genetic ancesrtry" as a contributing factor that decides ethnicity, let's cite some other sources that talk about different factors within the context of an ethnoplural identity.

For a starter (and maybe even the most important one), language:

"Moroccan Arabic is much influenced by Berber phonetics, phonology, mor-phology, and lexicon because Berber Speakers have carried over manystructural features of their native language into this variety of Arabic, to the extent that Middle East Arabic Speakers can hardly communicate with Moroccans unless they resort to the classical variety of Arabic. For this reason, Moroccan Arabic is phonologically and morphologically more dis-tant from Classical Arabic or the Middle East colloquial varieties than it is from Berber. As a consequence of the important impact of Berber, the everyday Arabic variety spoken in the Maghrebi region äs a whole is linguistically distinct from that in the Middle East areat especially at thephonological and morphological levels."

Int'L J. Soc. Lang. 123 (1997), pp. 101-118

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ijsl.1997.123.101/pdf

So one of the most contributing factors that describes and ethnic group (language) is in this case closer to the Berber variant than it is to the Arabic one. So ask yourself this question again. Is it more acurate to call them Arabized-berbers (or Berber Arab), or instead just label them under the umberella term of "Arab" that truly holds no ethnoplural value, since this term describes half of the African continent, the Middle-East and parts of Southern-Asia?

Furthermore;

"Arabs came to North Africa in the seventh century. But since the dawn of history, there have been Berbers in this part of the world that the Arabs call the Maghreb. When the Arabs invaded, the mountain fastnesses of Morocco inhibited intermingling of the two peoples, and although the Berbers were eventually converted to Islam, their ethnic and linguistic purity has been preserved until today.

Morocco has long been considered the most Western-oriented society in the Arab world. The reason has less to do with politics and geography than with Berber culture. For Morocco is not an Arab country at all, but a Berber one with a deceptive Arab veneer.

Half the Moroccan population speaks Berber, a Hamitic language similar to ancient Libyan with an alphabet that bears no resemblance to Arabic. Berber dynasties ruled Morocco throughout much of the medieval period, since Arab control of the country was always tenuous. Though the Alaouit Dynasty - sovereign from the 17th century to the present day - is considered Arab, King Hassan II's wife, Latifa, is Berber, as have been the wives of previous Alaouit monarchs. The Berber is what makes the difference between the Maghreb mentality and the Arab mentality of the Near East, said Mohammed Chafik, Inspector General of National Education, himself a Berber."

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/06/weekinreview/in-morocco-a-berber-face-hides-beneath-an-arab-mask.html

(note that when they mention "Half the Moroccan population speaks Berber", they are talking about the pure unchaged form of the Berber language, and not standard Moroccan Arabic (Darija) which is also heavily influenced by the Berber language as mentioned before).

There are countless of other cultural aspects to mention that differentiates Moroccan Berber culture from a Middle-Eastern Arab one, wether it's food, music, architecture, clothing. All of these things are what differentiates different people groups on ethnoplural values, and between (Arabized)-Berbers and Arabs there are countless of them. Flesek (talk) 14:58, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of the ethnicity debate, as a linguist and someone who speaks both Darija and MSA as second languages, Darija is not "a mix of Arabic and Berber". It does have significant Berber influence and it can be considered a language separate from Middle Eastern Arabic dialects, but modern linguistics does not back it being considered as a creole, mixed language or anything similar. Quite a lot of the unique words found in Darija are of obscure Arabic origins rather than Amazigh. Last edited by: (talk) 16:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I suggest removing the 67%. This pecentage is arbitrary and based on no official data. In fact, we shouldn't associate Moroccans with arabs. Yes a majority speaks arabics including those with berber as a first language. But calling Moroccans "arabs" that's in my opinion not correct. 96.20.10.133 (talk) 03:42, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree. The article is false. Most people are Berbers. Half of them are Arabized in language and so on. Etnic still berbers. 2A02:A450:917:1:D96:E597:9BED:5028 (talk) 10:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see a single source above that uses the term "Arabized Berbers" for direct reference. The UNHCR page says "...would be better described as Arabized Berbers", which is a clear indacation that the term is actually not used. In the article, there is only EB, and they use "Arabized Berbers" in a sense that seems to by quite different from the one you're trying to introduce here (judging from the demographic proporations with 44% "Arab", 24% "Arabized Amazigh (Berber)", 21% "other Amazigh (Berber)"). –Austronesier (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

"Arabized Berbers" is a synonym for "Arab-Berber". But you're right, sources should be consulted appropriatly (even though i did mention sources that described the term "arabizsed-berber"). Therefor the green part in the chart should be changed from "Arab" into "Arab-Berber". The sources in the reference table of this wikipedia page should be more than enough material to work with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber Flesek (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

So what's the conclusion here? As you can see on this talk page others are starting to take note of the errors on this page. If you don't have any other objections i suggest we take care of these errors as soon as possible. Flesek (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't see others "starting to take note of the errors on this page". I just see a clown show. Are you in all earnest referring to the meritless IP post below that says "Over 80% are Berber" and at the same time adds two sources which don't support it? The first doesn't mention the ethnic proportions of the Moroccan population at all, while the second gives a percentage of 40 (forty!) % for the Amazigh population of Morocco. –Austronesier (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

The "80% argument" has been literally posted under the references which i linked in previous wikipedia pages during this discussion. It's very clear that you have a certain bias, which disrupts the quality and accuracy of the information on this page. I'm gonna change up the incorrect information right now. Please don't contribute in edit warring. If you feel this information is correct, then please post accurate sources, or involve another wikipedia moderator to this discussion, because we are not going to solve anything here by going back and forth. Flesek (talk) 01:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Flesek: you know that there is no consensus to support your change. You're also fully aware that you're not supposed to edit war.

"Arabized Berbers" is a synonym for "Arab-Berber" are you sure about that? According to some sources, 99% of Moroccans are Arab-Berber. Does that mean that 99% of Moroccans are Arabized Berbers? M.Bitton (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

"Does that mean that 99% of Moroccans are Arabized Berbers?"

Yes that's pretty what this means (either ethnic Berber or from mixed Berber-Arab herritage). Aside from the mostly unmixed Berbers tribes (who represent the smaller part of the chart), every single Moroccan is of mixed Arab-Berber herritage, which is the reason why this wikipedia page exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber

As you can see this page not only classifies the majority of Moroccans as "Arab-Berber", but it also talks about Arab-Berbers as a distinguishable ethnicity, which differs from the term "Arab" which can either mean a cultural Arab sphere, which is a too vague of a term to actually describe a Moroccan ethnicity since it describes the largest part of the Muslim world. Or it can mean ethnic Arabs from the southern-Arabian peninsula, which clearly aren't Moroccans at all.

The reason why most sources on this topic are vague, is because there isn't a clear consensus on how much Arab or Berber herritage each Moroccan holds, which is mostly a result of the Arabization process in North-Africa. But the fact remain that every so called "Arab" Moroccan is in fact of mixed Arab-Berber herritage, and so do the language and cultural practices differ from Arabs in the middle-east. That's why the term "Arab-Berber" or "Arabized Berbers" came into existance in the first place.

Amazigh organisations for example are claiming that over 65% of all Moroccans are actually ethnic Berbers, and not Arabs, as you can read in this link.

https://www.iwgia.org/en/morocco.html Flesek (talk) 02:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Since you claim that 99% of Moroccans are "Arabized Berbers" (a term that you want to use as an ethnic identifier), then this change wouldn't make any sense, unless you're suggesting that the Berbers represent 1% of the population; but this is clearly not the the case, because you're supporting the claim that 65% of all Moroccans are actually ethnic Berbers. M.Bitton (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Well in my opinion the 99/1% doesn't make sense, since there are many tribal groups in Morocco who can be clearly distinguished from eachother based ethno linguistic and cultural factors. But this is how official sources, including the cia world factbook, represents it. The remaining 1% would not represent Berbers, but sub-Saharan Africans instead, because ethnic Berbers are in this case classified under the 99% Arab-Berber.

Here's a link to the cia world factbook, and some other sources as well...

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/morocco/#people-and-society

https://study.com/learn/lesson/morocco-ethnic-groups-demographics-population-diversity.html

https://www.countryreports.org/country/Morocco/population.htm

On the other hand it's also possible to make a chart that represents Moroccan demographics in a more detailed way (such as is the case in this wikipedia page for example), which would make more sense since the goal of this website is to educate people as much as possible. It will also give a very clear picture of how much actual ethnic Berbers reside in the country.

But here is what i take issue with. The "Arab" part of the chart is not an accurate term to give a clear picture of the demographics that reside in Morocco.

The bulk of Arab migration to Morocco happened in the 13th and 14th century by the Banu Hilal and Banu Suleym tribes who mostly settled around the southern-part of Morocco. As of then they have intermixed massively with local Berber populations, and as of today it's nearly impossible to find an actual ethnic Arab in Morocco. Also the cultural practises and language has been heavily influenced during the centuries, to the point where a standard Arabic speaker can't understand someone who speaks Moroccan Arabic.

Representing these people on the chart as "Arab" is the same like representing a Mestizo in a Latin-American country like ethnic "Spanish". At least Spanish people can actually understand Mestizos, unlike Arabs who can't understand Moroccans.

I highly advice you to read the wikipedia page about Arab-Berbers, and try to comprehend it. Even this entire wikipedia page applies this term to 99% of the entire population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber

Also, i never made the claim that 65% of all Moroccans are 65% ethnic Berbers. This claim was made by various Amazigh/Berber civil society movements, which you can consult in this link.

https://www.iwgia.org/en/morocco.html Flesek (talk) 11:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

ethnic Berbers are in this case classified under the 99% Arab-Berber in that case, your change doesn't make any sense, because you're applying the percentage of the "Arab-Berber" to the Arabs only. M.Bitton (talk) 14:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

You're clearly misunderstanding what i'm trying to say here. I'm applying the 99% "Arab-Berber" to both "Arabs" (as in mixed between Berber and Arab), and to ethnic Berbers.

This video for example did a good job on what the actual ethnic chart of Morocco should look like. It's still not 100% accurate, but much more accurate then what's presented on this page.

You can see the chart on the 8:30 timestamp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iqBeJnsq8U&t=2s Flesek (talk) 02:47, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm applying the 99% "Arab-Berber" to both "Arabs" (as in mixed between Berber and Arab), and to ethnic Berbers. No, you're not.

As this diff shows, you applied the percentage of the "Arab-Berber" to the Arabs only, by changing "Moroccans are primarily of Arab and Berber origin" to "Moroccans are primarily of Arab-Berber and Berber origin". M.Bitton (talk) 14:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes i applied it to that part of the chart to differentiate the population of mixed Arab-Berber descent from the unmixed Berbers, which is a way more accurate representation than applying the term "Arab" to a population that is known as "Arab-berbers" by anthropological terms. I even posted an entire wikipedia page that explains this part of the chart. But i'll post it again in case you've missed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber

Arab-Berbers are different from ethnic Arabs in the middle-east. That's the main point here.

If we both don't come to a conclusion here, i suggest to change the chart into 99% Arab-Berber as is presented in the cia world factbook. Flesek (talk) 04:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems that Western Europeans are Portuguese, French, German or Spanish. *The Catalans may share with their neighbors from the provinces and with the rest of the Spaniards, but they define themselves as one ethnicity

Ethnic identity cannot be reduced to a single genetic trait, as it is a complex construct influenced by a range of factors such as culture, language, religion, and history. While certain genetic traits may be present in Muslims and Christians of the Middle East, it does not necessarily mean that they identify as Berber. Similarly, while researchers have attributed certain genes to ancient civilizations such as the Egyptians, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Persians, and Arabs, these populations still maintain their distinct ethnic identities. Finally, while many people around the world share similar genes, ethnicity is not solely determined by genetics, but rather by a range of cultural and historical factors unique to each population. Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree with your statement. But i still fail to understand how "Arab-Moroccans" have the same culture, language and history to Arabs in the Middle-East. Even their Islamic religion is a unique branch of Maliki Sunni Islam that develloped within Morocco.

Again, the term "Arab-Berber" didn't came out of the blue. There's a reason why they classified Moroccans under this specific term, in order to differantiate them from actual Arabs in the middle-east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber Flesek (talk) 15:53, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Third Opinion?

There is a request at the Third Opinion noticeboard about this article, but it is not clear what the question is. Can someone please state what the question is, or what the two views are?Robert McClenon (talk) 04:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't believe this article should make a distinction between the ethnicities of "Arab" or "Berber," and instead would be better written just left as "99% Arab-Berber" (and NOT "Arabized Berber", which doesn't seem to be a true synonym - arabized is an adjective applied to Berber, implying the ethnic group is modified Berber, rather than a combination of the two. This is evident in the wikipedia pages for Arab-Berber and Arabized Berber). This, I believe, is supported by a majority of reliable sources that have been presented.

• Sources supporting "Arab" classification of majority

1. https://books.google.dz/books?id=fs0Fog7XneUC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

• Sources supporting "Arab-Berber" classification of majority

1. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/morocco/
2. https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/morocco-population
3. https://www.countryreports.org/country/Morocco/population.htm
4. https://study.com/learn/lesson/morocco-ethnic-groups-demographics-population-diversity.html

• Sources supporting "Berber" classification of majority

1. https://www.iwgia.org/en/morocco.html (not the strongest reliability)

• Sources that make no mention of quantified ethnic population make-up
  • https://www.britannica.com/place/Morocco/Climate (The only source currently cited in the article for the quantitative breakdown - Doesn't even mention ethnicities, and is about climate)
  • https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/06/weekinreview/in-morocco-a-berber-face-hides-beneath-an-arab-mask.html (General discussion of Arab conquering of Berber population)
  • https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ijsl.1997.123.101/pdf (Discussion of LANGUAGES, not ethnicities)

I suggest to change the chart into the 99% Arab-Berber classification, since this is how most sources depict the ethnic composition of Moroccans, in contrary to the single source in here that describes Arabs as a majority of the Moroccan population. This also clears out any confusion and/or disputes about the ethnic composition of Moroccans. In all reality "Arab" is an umberella term that describes the majority of the middle-east and north-Africa, in which even ethnic Berbers can be classified under since it mostly describes someone who speaks the Arabic language and practises an Islamic/Arabic culture. So it's not an accurate term to depict a genetic and/or ethnic sub-group in a single country. But i'm willing to come to terms, as long as we use the most common and reliable sources that are represebted in here (which in this case it represent Arab-Berbers as 99% of the population). User:Flesek (talk) 06:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

This suggestion won't improve this page and will only make it confusing and unspecific. Arab-Berber isn't an ethnic group and only combines both ethnic groups into a percentage of 99%, and even the Arab-Berber page has no definition of what that term means. This is inaccurate and doesn't reflect the real ethnic percentages. As far as I'm aware nobody identifies as Arab-Berber but only as one ethnic group which they're born to. According to the Arab Barometer 71% of the interviewed Moroccans identify as Arab and 28% identify as Berber https://www.arabbarometer.org/survey-data/data-analysis-tool/, and this almost matches the ethnic percentages in this page, so in conclusion the majority of Moroccans belong to the Arab ethnic group. I can find you several sources which consider Arabs as the majority with a similar percentage.

• "Arab 70%, Berber 29%, European 1%"
• "Arab 70%, Berber 30%"
• "Morocco's population is approximately 67% Arab, 31% indigenous Berber and 2% Sahrawi"
• "More than 80% of Moroccans are Arab, while the remaining 20% are Berber"
• "Majority Arabs, 35% Berbers"
• "A crushing majority of Moroccans are Arabs"

Skitash (talk) 12:31, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Skitash Based on the sources you provided, the ethnic breakdown of ~70% Arab and ~30% Berber has much stronger support. Encyclopedic World Atlas, The Report: Morocco, and World Health Systems all seem very reliable to me, and they look like expert sources in their field. The FT and Genetic Disorders sources aren't verifiable based on the links you provided, but I have no reason to doubt they also say as you quoted. The piece in The Gazelle, however, should be seen as no more than a supporting opinion - the article author themself disclaims the article as a personal interpretation of facts, so it's not the strongest of source on its own for the claim that "a crushing majority of Moroccans are Arabs."

The previously-provided sources (CIA, World Pop review, Country Reports) are all geared for more general audiences. The label "Arab-Berber" pretty clearly doesn't refer to an ethnic group, but is instead a convenient label used to group together the two ethnic groups (if, for example, the exact breakdown couldn't be determined).

Tl;dr The ethnic breakdown of ~70% Arab and ~30% Berber is well-sourced, and I would support this article being written (and sourced) in a way that includes this. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Flesek on re-reading this, "Arab" is an umberella term that describes the majority of the middle-east and north-Africa, in which even ethnic Berbers can be classified is inaccurate. The term "Arab," by most accounts, refers primarily to an ethnic group. And the definition of ethnic group is, in general terms: "a social group or category of the population that, in a larger society, is set apart and bound together by common ties of race, language, nationality, OR culture."[1] [2] [3] You'd be hard-pressed to argue that "Arab" is not an ethnic group at all, as there are plenty of reliable sources that back it up [4] [5] [6] So, if we're categorically dividing ethnic groups, Arab and Berbers are distinct ethnic classifications.

As an aside: While informing myself to reply here, I'm reminded of what a nebulous concept "ethnicity" is. The ethnic groups of Arab and Berber share incredible overlap, and there is no bright-line boundary between the two. Someone who speaks Arabic, practices Islam for religion, is genetically descended from Moroccan African natives, and is a citizen of Morocco could be considered EITHER ethnically Arab or ethnically Berber - fully dependent on how THEY see THEMSELVES. This isn't my area of expertise - I'm not an expert on anthropology, and I live in an area that's rather ethnically homogenous in many ways - but it's interesting seeing the ways people use to divide themselves, and how strictly they adhere to these ideas. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:47, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I can only second the above comments. By stating that 99% of the Moroccan population are "Arab-Berbers", you completely blur out that ethnicity matters especially to those who speak a Berber language and self-identify as Amazigh. It probably matters less for Arabic-speaking Moroccans who mostly just identify as "Moroccan" as a nationality and see the label "Arab" less as an intra-national ethnic identifier, but rather as a transnational one (i.e. Morocco as a country in the Arab world). The reason for this is that that both French colonialism (cf. the Berber Dahir) and Arabic-focused nationalism have resulted in the Amazigh population becoming the minoritized "other" who in turn seeks self-affirmation by stressing Amazigh cultural and linguistic identity.

As reading matter I recommend "Language, Nationalism, and Gender" by Moha Ennaji and Fatima Sadiqi in this volume (repository access here) and "National Narratives and the Invention of Ethnic Identities: Revisiting Cultural Memory and the Decolonized State in Morocco" by Norah Karrouche[7] (repository access here). This topic deserves a more differentiated perspective than just speaking about ~70% Arab and ~30% Berber (even if well-sourced) or indulging in biologizing OR which turns Arabic-speaking Moroccans into "Arabized Berbers". –Austronesier (talk) 17:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Never did i say that the term “Arabs” doesn’t refer to an ethnic group. What i did imply is that term “Arab” is of incorrect use here, because what you fail to understand is that the term “Arab” can be used in 2 ways. First you have the actual ethnic group of Arabs (and no Moroccans are not a part of this). The original Arabs (which i’m referring to as the ethnic Arabs) originate from the Southern-Arabian peninsula, and are genetically distinguishable from other populations in North-Africa since their markers are dominated by haplogroup J. In Africa itself it’s the Sudanese who share the most similarities to them genetically. When we talk about North-African populations (and especially Moroccans wether they’re “Arabs” or “Berbers”) then it’s haplogroup E that dominates their markers, meaning that we’re dealing with complete 2 different people groups in terms of genetics.

The second way you can use the term “Arab” is as i stated earlier, as an umberela term that describes the entire Arab/Muslim world (which in contrary to popular believe, doesn’t include countries like Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan since they live in a Persian/Muslim sphere). I’ll give you an example. All countries that are considered “Arab” are part of the Arab league. So when we take a country like Somalia, which is part of the Arab league, we can clearly see that we’re not dealing with the same people at all when we compare it to a country like Morocco. Even their language is completely different from Arabic, yet they are still part of the Arab world because their individual culture got absorbed by the Arab world, even though it has it’s own clear distinct influence in every regard of that particular culture. This is exactly the same case with Morocco, and this is the exact reason why i’m arguing to change the charts, because otherwise this chart implies that the “Arabic sub-group” are genetically, and ethnically the same like in the rest of the entire Arab world. And since we know that the entire Arab world, let alone Morocco, is made out from many different tribal ethnicities, you will never get a good grasp of the ethnic composition in Morocco by simply putting “Arab” in the chart.

Also you have claimed this statement:

“And the definition of ethnic group is, in general terms: "a social group or category of the population that, in a larger society, is set apart and bound together by common ties of race, language, nationality, OR culture."

Let me tell you that every single point in here (race, language, nationality and culture) differs between “Arab” Moroccans and Arabs from the Middle-East. Even the “Arabic” language that is spoken by Moroccans, is so different, to the point that Arabs in the Middle-East have no clue what they are saying when they are talking. So again, are we really dealing with the same group of people here? All the major factors like history, language, culture and ethnicity says they aren’t. Flesek (talk) 17:30, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

All I will add is that, in the case this stuff is self-reported, Moroccans have over time internalized a fair bunch of Arab chauvinist discourse, shoved down their throats by their government. I assume many folks there claiming Arab descent would shoot themselves if they did a DNA test.

My father was born in Morocco; he remembers that kids back there were taught in elementary school that Berbers originated in Yemen. Synotia (moan) 18:06, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Your dad is lying to you man! I'm an Amazigh Moroccan and I can tell you for sure Amazigh originated in the north of Africa we have history dating back 6 thousands of years at least. Arab chauvinist discourse you say. No we lived in peace for thousands of years until the French came and divide to conquer. Arabs are not our enemies. Maybe to you as you must have internalised much of the western Arab hate. Good luck to you my friend. Amazigh also identify as Moroccans, but we also hold dear our heritage without it conflicting with our love to our Arab Moroccans and especially not hating that of Arabs in fact we love trading knowledge. Many words in Moroccan Darija (Arabic dialect) come from Tamazight and many words in Tamazight are Tamazighted Arabic words. Good day to you. Do not let Western biases blur your vision of who are the people of Morocco. We can disagree and call each other all the names in the book, but we will never let go of each others hands, we are one. We might call out our authorities, we might denounce our government wrong doings and even ask to have our own sovereignty but Moroccan is our ethnicity, we will never separate from Morocco and the Moroccans because we are them and they are us. In our blood and in our love. 2603:6082:1640:9:C919:C7BC:5B04:8908 (talk) 00:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Sure sure dima lmghrib, allah alwatan almalik, etc.

You threw a chunk of nationalism on this while you misunderstood what I wrote. My dad nor I never said it's true; only that this was taught back in the day (1960s) Synotia (moan) 18:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2023

change 'israel' to palestine 220.235.144.196 (talk) 09:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Liu1126 (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Do Not Use the Term Berber

The term Berber was inflicted upon the Amazigh people (which means the free people) by the French colonialists who referred to the Amazigh people as Barbaric and used Berber as a pejorative and insult the Amazigh people. Please do refrain from using such words. It is no better than saying the n word to African Americans. 2603:6082:1640:9:C919:C7BC:5B04:8908 (talk) 00:08, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

It was Arabs who used the term Berber first, the French borrowed it from Arabs (who themselves borrowed it from the Greeks) Synotia (moan) 18:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2024

I suggest to remove the countries with less than 60.000 moroccans, and the countries without source. Al Kebdani (talk) 13:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Shadow311 (talk) 15:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)