Talk:Mosul/Archive 1

Archive 1

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i have one question about arab population increases in iraq despite the war despite the fac that millions of peoples left iraq every arab city seems to have a population growth of 10% mosul had 1,75 milions in 2002 , and now six years later it has grown to 2,8 millions this 130.000 per year or 7% but how is it possible if people actually flee the city over 200.000 people have fled the city there is no immigration to the city worth of talking of but according to wikipedia mossul and baghdad have doubled their population two of the wars wortst affected cities —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.184.74.135 (talk) 07:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Headline text

Here is a picture of the Saddam mosque in Mosul... I believe. gren 08:35, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Population Mosul-city

Somebody just changed the percentage of the Arab population of the city of Mosul from 80% to 60%. On which proof is this change based? Could 80.136.90.7 explain why he changed it? And was the percentage based on the census of 2002, as mentioned in the sentence before? Does the person who changed the percentage to 60% have any new information? Until further explanation I think the 80% should be seen as correct. Nightworker 22:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

It is very difficult to estimate the percentage of each ethinc group in Iraq, first because of Saddam's biased figures, and second because any census that is going to be done in the near future is even more biased due to the manipulations of different Iraqi political parties that try to sell their own agenda.

But, regarding Mosul where my ancestors lived for ages, I can say that the vast majority of Mosul are Arabs (mostly Muslims but also christians) possibly around 70%, Kurds are the second largest ethnic group, Turkomans come next. This fact has never been an issue till recent years when politicians started to play their own games inorder to gain more control and power over the city.

The language spoken in markets, Schools, University colleges and official buildings is Arabic, unless that the people who speak are all Kurdish or Turkomans.. Mosul is known for it own Arabic Dialect, and there are many families and tribes, mostly of Arabic origins who lived there for ages, everyone can distinguish individuals who are originally from Mosul city ,even if they live elsewhere in Iraq, just by reading their last names.

Due to the fact that Mosul is a big and a major city in the northern part of Iraq, lots of migrations from rural areas and nearby towns were directed toward Mosul (over a long period of time), these migrations which included different ethnic groups led to changes in the demographic and the social nature of the city.

It is true that Saddam's regime didn't allow kurds to hold properties and real-estates (which is unfair I believe) but still most of them were not originally residents of Mosul City, and he had a similar law in Baghdad, where he didn't allow anyone to buy reale-state in Baghdad unless he/she is born their no matter what ethnic group he/she are from.

Still, even if they are all allowed to own their houses and register as Kurds they wont be the Majority in Mosul in any possible way.

Also, the half of the city which resides on the west bank of the tigris river is mostly populated by Arabs, and this part of the city is the oldest and the most heavily populated, the east side where I live is controversial, even though I also believe that it is mostly Arabic, except for some neighborhoods where Kurds are the Majority in them only.

Finally, I don't always trust the US military sources due to the fact that they cooperate with Kurdish political parties and militias and rely on them heavily, while partially ignoring the Arabs in the city. And this probably is one of the reasons for the unstable security situation in Mosul.

Regards, Prince-of-Mosul

the census of 2002 is not right the iraqi government said that kurds only represent 8% of the population we have to wait for the next census but mossul is more diversed then it semms from this the majority of the population of the eastern bank of the city is kurdish arabs are only the majority of the population on the west side the census of 2002 said that only 12% of the population of kerkuk were kurds these are biased figures , and election results proved that they are wrong, they were made in order to undermine the size of the kurdish population thére are enough article about the city , from journalist , us-soldiers etc and there are historical data about the ethnic make up of the town and arabs do not represent 80% of the city population and believe me , nearly 50% of the population live on the eastern side the reason why kurds were only counted as 8% of the city population , is because kurds were not allowed to buy or sell land , that is why a lot said that they are arabs and the census counted yezidis and shabaks as nonkurds

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/KO%20News/18-9-03-kurds-buying-property-mosu.html The law back then, when Saddam Hussein's Baath Party ran things, prohibited Kurds from buying property unless they renounced their Kurdish ethnicity and declared themselves Arabs.

So thousands of Kurds solved the problem by buying property in the name of a trusted Arab friend or neighbor.

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/041103_us_kurds_take_mosul.htm Mosul is about two-thirds Arab. Kurds are the largest ethnic minority, and the city also includes ethnic Turks http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/01/1c3b63c8-059a-46b0-bad0-9031f6115289.html It's an ethnically mixed city. There are Kurds there; they are in the eastern parts. The Arabs who live there have their own dialect. They are related in tribes that straddle the border with Syria," Said says. http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=2&p=7202&s2=15 Most of Mosul's 400,000 Kurds - nearly a quarter of the population - live on the east bank of the River Tigris. http://assyriatimes.com/engine/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3144 Nineva province is 40 percent Sunni Arab, 35 percent Kurdish, 15 percent Shiite. The remaining 10 percent is Christian and Assyrian. It is also the second most populated province, after Baghdad, and 19 parliamentary seats were up for grabs http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/1375?PHPSESSID=cfb7232a47313623ff48113b13e59d0c Some 70 per cent of its population are Arabs, mostly living on the west bank of the river; the rest are Kurds, who live mostly on the east bank.

i know that these are not good figures but all are not based on arabic or kurdish sources but on neutral sources , from journalists and the us-military and they all say , that the city population is about 50%-70% and 25%-40% kurdish , and a christian and turkish community in it

that is why i wrote that the city is about 60 arabs , the rest are kurds , christians and turkmen

Anti-Kurdish POV pushing and dispute

This edit is a clear example of vandalism or at least POV pushing. The user thinks since he is from Mosul as he claims, it makes him automatically a professor of this matter or a prince of the city. He ignores authorative sources such as Encyclopedia of Britannica or Encyclopedia of Orient in the name of mistakes. My response to this guy is that: No one owns no article on wikipedia. Neither a Japanes user owns the Japanese related pages nor a Russian owns the Russian related pages. You are more than welcome to edit article of Duhok BY providing authorative sources not like here by ignoring authorative sources and coming with some random news websites etc... So until my concerns would be gone the article is disputed. Jalalarbil 16:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Current land war

I just took a shot at putting in some notes about the current situation: I'd suggest that it is a land war between Kurds, allied to the U.S., and the Sunni Arabs, and that both sides can be presented sympathetically (and I tried to do so). It would be great if someone could turn these notes into better encyclopediac quality writing, but I decided to follow the suggestion (is it "be bold"?) and insert material where it is obviously needed, as a starting point. Alrivet

I agree with you regarding the quality of these notes, but I have to say this, the people in mosul city are NOT fighting, I am a Muslim Arab and I have lots of friends of the Kurdish ethnic group and lots of friends of the Christian faith, we all live in great harmony now and before, the actions of some few deviated minds don't count for the whole population. I have to say that the radical minds (including Saddam's loyalists), the militiary and the political games (including the Kurdish parties) are the main reasons for increasing friction and troubles among us. I wonder and I don't understand why would someone put these notes ,that tells about a very short period of time in history, in an encyclopedic article about a city that has a history of 8000 years ?!. Prince-of-Mosul

Using Irish Anti-war.org as a source for two paragraphs of pure opinion is not acceptable. Nayt1 02:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)nayt1

too many links.

come on.... Zazaban 01:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Upcoming Revision

Hello all. I am going to be making a revision to a portion of this page within the near future for a college project. I am a combat veteran and spent 10 months stationed in Mosul. I plan on revising the portions titled 'Mosul in the 20th Century' and 'Mosul after Saddam'. There are also a couple of pictures of the city itself that I took that I am planning on posting. I also intend on correcting the hint of bias that I detected in the page, for instance, the following quote is in the section 'Mosul in the 20th Century', "discovery and exploitation of oil in the area". Obviously the word 'exploitation' carries with it a negative connotation and makes the accusation that the city has improperly marketed their assets. Also, I plan on making some non-sensitive updates to the record of the U.S. military's operations in the area. The haji hunter 13:0, 5 December, 2007 (UTC)

Good deal. One thing I do know from being a civilian there myself is that east of the river is nearly 100% Kurd. They're not just the majority there, they're just about it. Of course that's maybe 30% of the city. 70.157.202.156 (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Category: Assyria

I would like to know why the category Assyria is allowed while category Kurdistan is being removed? Is there exact boundaries for Assyria? As far as I remember that's the main reason given for removing the Kurdistan category. Heja Helweda 22:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know very much about Kurdistan, but while Assyria's boundaries shifted a bit over time (as with most ancient nations), I'm pretty sure the capital (any time they were sufficiently independent to have a capital) was always at Nineveh. That's well established common knowledge among ancient history buffs, unless I am greatly mistaken. So category Assyria is correct here. Regarding category Kurdistan, I don't know, ask the person who removed it, or someone who is an expert on that subject. --Jonadab, 2007 Oct 05.

Because Mosul isnt part of Kurdistan! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArabMexican (talk • contribs) 16:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Redlinks

There are an awful lot of redlinks in teh subsections of "Historical Places in Mosul". I'm not sure why there are so many. RJFJR (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The idea is that most, if not all, deserve articles, but nobody has written them yet. I'm working on one of these in userspace.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 07:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

what happened

When the americans came to Mosul soem people cooperated with them for different reasons and different ways. Some worked as translators, others made buisness with them, like working in some american agencies, or taking contracts to the benfit of the troops. These people were of different ethnic groups, some were arabs and some were kurds, some were muslims and others were christians. These people became targets for killing by the militants or the resistance, regardless of thier ethnity or religion, and i still see some kurds living and working in Mosul despite the fact. In Mosul the matter did not turn into ethnic conflict, despite relentless efforts by some to push it down this road, but probably it did in other places like telafar, and such efforts succeeded to a great extent in shaping seperate and pure ethnic and religious areas around Mosul especially in the small towns outside the city, and there is a mutual tendency among these different groups to keep thier areas "clean", like christians in karakoush and shabak in bazwaya "both areas are near to Mosul" Some tribes around Mosul especially in alhadhar "al hatra" and qayara south of Mosul have both police and army people working with the americans and others working against, and in some places you see two brothers one is a policeman and the other is a militant, and they do not kill each other. It is the tendecy of the media to show that the resistance against the americans are majorly between the muslim sunni arabs, and this is true, but not because ethnic or religious reasons, but because the dominant political parties in these areas seek cooperation with the americans to achieve control and power. Many kurds shia and christians think badly of the americans and the political parties and blame them for thier tragidies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.146.171.139 (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Language

The language of the Arab people in Mosul is a special dialect of Arabic, partially influenced by Syria, due to the proximity of Mosul to [Syria].

Whoever wrote that is clearly not a native person from Mosul and clearly knows nothing of the Muslawi dialect. The Muslawi dialect is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Syrian. Palestinian, Lebanese and Jordanian are very similar to Syrian but certainly not the Muslawi dialect. If anything, Muslawi is like standard arabic mixed with turkish. Please give me ONE example of how muslawi is similar to syrian? the gh replacing r is not from syrian, syrians don't speak like that. Whoever wrote the original part is a fool with no knowledge and no business writing about mosul. Infact, I was able to converse in turkey by speaking muslawi. 7hameed7 (talk) 01:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)7Hameed7

Population of Mosul

Existing text says: "It is Iraq's second largest city after Baghdad.[1]"

This eliminates Al Basra as the second largest city, although it has 3.8 million citizens vs. the 1.8 million for Mosul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.113.8.138 (talk) 22:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

notable persons born in mosul include mar gregorius abdal jaleel the 5 th patriarch of jerusalem who spent most of his later life in kerala india and in his old age lived in north parur kerala continously for a period of 7 to 8 yrs and his mortal remains are interred in the jacobite church in north parur kerala india ,every year on 27 th april as a mark of respect to this holy father [bava] his death anniversary is celebrated on 27 th april and haas been done so without a break for almost 2oo yrs by the people of north parur who loved and respected him and i personally worship and pray to him everyday as my ancestors were polytheists worshipping a mother goddess from the fertile crescent of mesopotamia of which mosul was once the capital yours sincerely prof dr t m saratchandraprasad panicker consultant physician/cardiologist medical director s m memorial superspeciality centre.and president s m memorial global ventures —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.97.55.231 (talk) 05:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC) one of the most striking qualities of this holy father was that he advocated,and encouraged fathers to get married before being ordained as preists and he felt that many of the irregulaties in the church could be avoided and prevented by advocating such a step, he was conferred sainthood only in 2000 A D as the roman catholic church never recognizes this simple preventive measure and step,personally i feel that all church fathers should be happily married as i have personally found married father much happier,more peaceful, better workers and more committed with less of mental and physical problems and this step should be taken all over the world as it is cheaper to do this rather than getting the pope to travel all over the world to apologise for the sins committed by others as he is not responsible for the errors and mistakes committed by others and this will also prevent conflicts with the various denominations ofchristianity,judaism and most IMPT OF ALL WITH ISLAM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.225.70.251 (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The following is 96.245.139.77's contribution. Put in after reverting previous deletion by 96.245.139.77

Answer to the first person (User talk:87.184.74.135)

It is 1,8mil! not 2,8 mil! The poplulation increase is caused by the immigrants from Kerkuk and other kurdish occupied areas. Iraq has lost 20% of its population.

Kurdish control

The majority of its population is now Arab (with Kurdish, Assyrian, Turcoman and Armenian minorities) and controlled by the Kurdistan Regional Government.

Apart from the obvious point that governments control territory, not people, is there any citation that backs up the claim that Mosul is controlled by the Kurdistan Regional Government? Some verified figures to back up claims of majority and minority ethnic groups might be helpful, as well. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Template:Location map Iraq Mosul

FYI, there is now a Template:Location map Iraq Mosul to locate places and buildings. -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:40, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Hadbah Minaret

The Hadba is part of the Nouri Mosque (aka Grand Mosque) and not the Ummayad. See.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 07:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Population of Mosul and religion

There is something wrong in this article, not all Christians are Assyrian, Chaldean or Syrians. Have many assyrians but not all are, some are Arab christians. They may be in religion but not necessarily in the ethnicity.My family are from the city of Mosul, go to Chaldean Church to attend but are not Assyrian or Chaldean ethnicity. There are many ethnic Arabs who are Christian or no religion. Therefore it is necessary to make this correction, for example my family can trace our background the various Christian tribes who came from Arabia (taghlib, Manathera and others). I am in fact an Arab who is Christian.Generally Christians living in cities for many years and do not speak Aramaic are the Arabs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.120.252.84 (talk) 05:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Have some Chaldean and Syriac orthodox that are arab christians, in Sa'a if you go to there you see a lot. Some arab christians follow Chaldean and Syriac orthodox in Mosul.--Salim1187 (talk) 22:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

You obviously haven't been to Mosul during the last 5 years... I would be surprised to see more than 1,000 left in the city, that's 0,05% of the total population which makes it difficult to describe as a majority. (Check this) --Rafy talk 08:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok Rafy, but is clear that have % of arab christians in Mosul. Same assyrians know and say this (in Mosul have arab christians that some follow Chaldean Church, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Roman Church and some protestants (in Sa'a majority that go to Chaldean church are Arab Christians) and we have good relation with assyrians. But you right, before 5 years arab christians from Mosul many moved to Syria, Lebanon and Jordania. --Salim1187 (talk) 00:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The majority of its population is Arab (with Assyrians, Turcoman and Kurdish minorities). ?????

Kurdish Minorities? The Kurds dominate Mosul! - if you dont know, come here and ask the gouverment! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.6.11.87 (talk) 17:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Climate - Snow

The article lists a few dates when it snowed in Mosul. I was there in the winter of 2007 and I have pictures of me making a snowman. I'm not sure of the exact date, and I don't know how to source this, but it has certainly snowed more times than the three listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.216.198.46 (talk) 14:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

History of Mosul

There is enough information so I spun it into it's own article.

• History of Mosul

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

What this means is that the original Mosul article can trim the History section somewhat. Then the History of Mosul article can go into even more detail. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Information from within the city

If anyone from within the city wishes to update this article but is concerned for their safety you may wish to instead contact a news organisation via Tor as although you can use Tor to read Wikipedia you cannot usually edit according to WP:Tor. Jzlcdh (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Archiving this talk page

Suggest threads older than, say, 365 days are archived periodically as per the date example at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MiszaBot/Archive_HowTo

Any objections? Jzlcdh (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Added archiving older than 700 days. Jzlcdh (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Parthian conquest

The date of Parthian conquest (from the Seleucids) is given as 225 BC. This is apparently wrong. In 225 BC, Seleucus II ruled over today's Iraq - a decade later, his brother Antiochus the Great would attack the early Parthian kingdom on the northern fringes of Iran and temporarily reduce it to the state of vassals again. Parthian expansion into Babylonia/Mesopotamia did not take place until the mid-2nd century BC. --Sponsianus (talk) 14:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit war over Chaldean

We have a few edits that change the meaning of things but no source change to go along with this. So far the reason for the change is "I know best. This will not fly here. Need sources for the change." As per WP:bold I have reverted this til there are sources for the change/ -- Moxy (talk) 16:01, 24 March 2015 (UTC) . Will Kymlicka; Eva Pföstl (2014). Multiculturalism and Minority Rights in the Arab World. OUP Oxford. p. 272. ISBN 978-0-19-166262-1.-- Moxy (talk) 17:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The history of Chaldeans and Assyrians is fairly straight forward and I fail to understand the confusion. According to Georges Roux - Ancient Iraq p.146 Sargon the Akkadian united all of Mesopotamia, which included the Semitic speaking people. Afterwards, the Assyrian empire was created, fell, then the Chaldean empire was created, fell and now we have survivors from each of these dynasties who have their own separate identities. Your citation claims they would be the same nationality "Chaldo-Assyrian" should they get their own autonomous state, but that never happened. With regards to ethnicity they are different. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 17:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for your change? The sources in the article dont back up your edits. Even the Encyclopædia Britannica say what we say here. Really going to need a source over the guess work thus far....pls see WP:PROVEIT-- Moxy (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Further investigation yielded the following reference on page 268 "In addition, Article 125 says that the Constitution must guarantee the administrative, political, cultural, and educational right of the various nationalities: Turkmen, Chaldeans, Assyrians, and all other segments of the population." Lawrencegoriel (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Book also states on p.269 "If one really insists on mentioning the nationalities, then all of them should be mentioned: Arabs, Kurds, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Syriacs, and Turkmen... with a view to equality and without hegemony." The author obviously meant ethnicity rather than nationality since all of these, most obviously Arab, are ethnicities without nations per se. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Why are you removing any mention of Assyrian's. Do you have any source you have read in the past...or are you learning as we go here? Liam Anderson; Gareth Stansfield (2011). The Ethnopolitics of Conflict and Compromise. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 25. ISBN 0-8122-0604-5.. At this point we are going to need you to cite some sources over regurgitation the ones shown to you making guess at what authors are trying to say.-- Moxy (talk) 17:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a borderline personal attack, please refrain from insults. Here is a source "chaldeans.html". "Until the 1950s the Mosul plain had always been the centre of Chaldean life." I'm sure no matter how many sources or evidence I bring will not "satisfy you." But please, continue... Lawrencegoriel (talk) 18:09, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Not a personal attack.... its concerning you seem not familiar with any scholarly publication on this......The sources above still does not explain why your removing Assyrians from the population of the city. Do you believe they have all left the city or something´. Is your point that there are no longer any Assyrians or that Assyrians and Chaldean are the same population -- --Moxy (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, I did not remove all reference to Assyrian as you claimed. I left plenty of the grandstanding statements (likely embedded there by Assyrian nationalists so they can advertise themselves as they seem to like to do). All I have done was to fix erroneous statements that proclaim that Assyrians have a dominant presence in Mosul, which they never have. Mosul's Christians are predominantly Chaldean, that's all I fixed. There are some minorities here and there, including Arab Christians, but nothing substantial as the article is falsely claiming. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 18:33, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Its clear I will need others to explain the problem here. Will invite a few other people to our conversation.--Moxy (talk) 18:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Do me a favor and contact someone from WikiMedia organization about this, this is beyond ridiculous and needs to resolved immediately. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 19:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree have no problem mentioning Chaldean but removing most info on Assyrians is the problem most will have. Will contact Wikiprojects. -- Moxy (talk) 19:03, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikiprojects is not WikiMedia, I want to speak to a non-biased administrator, not a group of Assyrian nationalists. Thank you very much. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

We are talking to admins at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Lawrencegoriel personally attacking User:Kathovo would love you to join in as you were asked to. The Wikimedia Foundation only host Wikipedia they dont get involved with things of this nature. -- Moxy (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

It appears that User:Lawrencegoriel has a problem with taking advice, unfortunately. We shall see. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 19:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Lawrencegoriel: If you wish to get advice from an administrator (halfway familiar with this topic area), you are welcome to contact me. However, administrators do not play the role of deciding content disputes on Wikipedia. All that I will be able to tell you is what will be expected of your conduct here, and what you can do if you think others fall short of those expectations. (The first thing you should have understood by now is, of course, that things like this [1] are completely unacceptable in this place.) I am well aware that this whole area has been rife with tendentious editing from all kinds of sides, and I tend to apply a zero-tolerance policy on all kinds of ethnically motivated disruption in the area, although the conflict has been spreading over so many different articles I can't have my eyes everywhere at once. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

With regard to the incident you cited, the situation has been resolved and I have ceased communications with that user. I will no longer engage in such conversation since I am a new user and won't get any benefit no matter who starts the personal attacks, as I have seen twice already. The user Moxy used a fake book which simply copied Wikipedia propaganda into text and then cited it as an excuse to revert my edit. I assumed good faith and asked them to provide another source. They could not and resorted to personal attacks. As a representative of the Chaldean community, I must ask you where were you when the name Chaldean was blanked from this page 3 years ago? I did not blank the Assyrian name and only included more accurate information. Unfortunately, the mention of Chaldeans seems to hurt Assyrian nationalists and that's what we are witnessing right now. I will move on other means of resolution. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 19:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

What "fake book" are you saying did Moxy use, and where? I can't find the discussion relevant to that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Check the edit history Lawrencegoriel (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit-conflict] Ah, wait, yes, now I see, you mean this [2] edit by Moxy with the google books link in the edit summary. Yes, that was indeed a serious gaffe on Moxy's part, and he ought to have known better. He also ought to have known better than to cite "WP:BRD" as a justification for another revert, when that was only prolonging what already was a full-blown edit war. So a warning for edit-warring goes to both of you, Lawrencegoriel and Moxy. Now, what you both need to do is to explain succinctly which factual claim(s) it is you are disagreeing about, and in what ways you think specific reliable sources back up your position. To the degree that it is just about the question of labelling the ethnicity/-ies in question, I am afraid you'll be in a difficult position: as far as I understand, it has been the consensus position on Wikipedia that the predominant view in reliable academic third-party sources is that "Assyrians" and "Chaldaeans" constitute a single ethnic group, divided only along religious lines, and that in English, the predominant label for this one ethnic group is "Assyrian" (quite independently of any conflicting claims regarding actual ethnic continuity with the ancient group of that name, which are all entirely irrelevant, whatever their truth). We are all well aware that this doesn't match the preferred self-designation practices of some parts of this group (or their expatriate representatives) and that this usage may come across as offensive to some of you, but what we go by is the predominant usage of reliable academic sources. If there are other, factual points of contention, please point them out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:03, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The edit with the mirror book was to show that the article has been like this for along time.....so long that books have coping the info have been put forth. It was in direct reply to his previous edit summary where he said "Removed typos where author referred to Assyrians but meant Chaldeans"...no typo as the link mirrored booked showed its been here for a long time. I then came to the talk page with the source(s) above. My problem is the removal of Assyrians from the population line and the other info just blanked. I have no problem adding the Chaldeans (perhaps in brackets) as they do see themselves as a different ethnic group. However Fut.Perf is correct that the academic world sees them as the same group separated by religion 'source for last two statements... Eliz Sanasarian (2000). Religious Minorities in Iran. Cambridge University Press. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-139-42985-6.....I dont know how many more sources are needed here. -- Moxy (talk) 21:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, if you look at the first few posts of this conversation before it degraded, I pointed out a few different sources which showed that Chaldeans and Assyrians are ethnically distinct, not simply on religious lines. The book Ancient Iraq by Georges Roux specifically mentions that Chaldeans and Assyrians do share a Semetic ancestry they are distinct people after the creation of the Assyrian Empire in the 9th century BC. This is also found in the book Untold Story of Native Iraqis by Amer Fatuhi. Even the citations that Moxy used stated that Chaldeans and Assyrians are different nationalities. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 20:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You gonna stop calling other editors 'Assyrian nationalists'...? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 20:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Calling someone an Assyrian nationalist is not a personal attack unless someone considers being an Assyrian nationalist a derogatory thing. Do you consider being an Assyrian nationalist a derogatory thing? Lawrencegoriel (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You used it pejoratively. Hence, a personal attack- and not something you can define for yourself. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 21:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That Amer Fatuhi is the same Amer Fatuhi that created the Chaldean flag of today, is the president of the Chaldean Educational Center of America and the one who recently wrote this letter. The ancient Assyrians and Chaldeans are a different story, Lawrence. The Nestorian (or Assyrian as you call it) and Chaldean Catholic churches of today both originate from the old Church of the East[3]. Why would a church split make these two different in any other way than the religious? I don't think that you consider the members of the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Syriac Catholic Church as different just beacause of their split. Shmayo (talk) 21:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Please look up the definition of "pejorative." I used the term as an adjective to describe a bias of point of view with blatant disregard to fact. Also, Mr. Shmayo, after reviewing your talk page it is fairly transparent that you, too, have Assyrian biased opinions which are not supported by fact as you tend to encounter these arguments regularly. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, pejoratively (after looking it up) is exactly how I perceived your meaning. Mlpearc (open channel) 21:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Back to the subject matter please, this is not about perceptions and opinions. This is about fact. The fact is that Chaldeans are not Assyrians no matter how you slice the pie. They are different religions, they are recognized as different nationalities in the Iraqi constitution. Furthermore, the city of Mosul is not home to any significant number of Assyrians but rather was the "centre of Chaldean life." up until the 1950s. Please show me any evidence to dispute these facts. Thanks! Lawrencegoriel (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

So 'back to the subject' = changing the subject... from the previous lack of good faith shown earlier? Right! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 21:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You are attempting to distract from the important issue. Please confine your comments to the topic. If you wish to continue to bash me personally, do it elsewhere. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 22:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I am attempting to encourage you to admit you were at fault. Fruitless, I know! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 22:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Since you all seem intent on reverting any correction to this egregious error, how about we just add citation needed on the parts which are not true. You can then begin to cite the lie using fake articles which will be disputed as they are used. Then after 3 attempts and failures, we will use the correct Chaldean name and add citation needed. Then actual citations will be placed and should be protected. Deal? --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 23:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The article needs to stay the way it was before you started editing it, you're the one saying the information is incorrect, you have the burden of proof. Mlpearc (open channel) 23:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a load of garbage that I have to prove that a lie is untrue, it would be much easier to make someone prove the lie but ok. What's the threshold? Exactly how many sources do you want and what specific information must be included? And if I provide this information what guarantees can you make that the truth will be protected? Lawrencegoriel (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

One, if it's unquestionably reliable and no. Mlpearc (open channel) 23:32, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's some

• "Who are the Chaldean Christians?". BBC News. BBC News. 13 March 2008. Retrieved 24 March 2015.
• "Refworld - Iraq: Chaldean Christians". UN Refugee Agency. Department of Homeland Security. 27 June 2000. Retrieved 24 March 2015.
• de Courtois, Sébastien (2004). The Forgotten Genocide: Eastern Christians, the Last Arameans. New Jersey: Gorgias Press. ISBN 1-59333-077-4.

--Lawrencegoriel (talk) 00:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit break

Here's the Constitution This Constitution shall guarantee the administrative, political, cultural and educational rights for the various nationalities, such as Turkmen, Caldeans, Assyrians and all other components. ...Note how it does not omit Assyrians, Again I have no problem with the addition of Chaldean,,,but not to the removal of Assyrian information.Eliz Sanasarian (2000). Religious Minorities in Iran CLICK HERE. Cambridge University Press. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-139-42985-6. -- Moxy (talk) 00:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, there was no removal of Assyrian. There were statements which were false as they related to the Assyrian name that would have been made true by using the Chaldean name. This is what was done in the revision. It was a good faith revision which maintained a significant amount of irrelevant Assyrian mention in it. Please take another look at the revision and familiarize yourself with the changes. Sorry for your confusion~! --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok I am sorry I see i am not clear here as to the problem...sorry my fault. We need to start from the beginning with these edits here ...where your swapping out Assyrian and replaced it with Chaldean despite the sources in the article saying "Assyrian" .....this is the problem!...your not changing the sources to match the text...its all based on your POV (that may or may not be correct). To change this you need the sources to do so. So lets looks at an 2 examples.

Mosul had a large Christian population, predominantly [ Chaldeans / Assyrians ] and Over 120 [ Assyrian/ native] Iraqi Sisters belonged to this congregation

The source associated with these statements dont mention Chaldean at all. Our readers will find it confusing and be perplexed (As I was). We have to assume our readers are not aware of the confusion between Chaldeans / Assyrians identities. ...thus the edits were reverted because the sources say one thing and the new edits .say another. -- Moxy (talk) 00:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The quote in question is given the reference of Woods, 2006. Which is citation #15 leading to this article [[4]] which mentions that the sisters are Catholic denomination. It does not mention Assyrian and therefore I used Native in order to keep neutrality rather than assume they were Chaldean, which most likely they were since they were Catholic. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 01:07, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: Need a ruling on this issue please. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 16:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Also on that list of enemies getting built up elsewhere... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 19:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place to solve the naming problem, naming issue has to be first solved at Assyrian people article rather than modifying every single instance where Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean occur.--Kathovo talk 19:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Mosul

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Information of the current situation in Mosul

I am aware that Isis, does not let anyone to leave Mosul to areas outside of their control, with out their permission. Perhaps it would be a good idea to add this in this article as well.Courtier1978 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Courtier1978: Do you have a reliable source that supports this claim ? Mlpearc (open channel) 19:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

One popular source that has something on the matter is this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/13/isis-mosul-residents-trapped_n_6862898.html,

My source is from a citizen that he is currently trapped in Mosul. It is possible for people in Mosul to communicate with us, through satellite internet. Courtier1978 (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Also http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2015/03/21/394322708/under-isis-life-in-mosul-takes-a-turn-for-the-bleak I guess it would be safer for you to edit the article rather than someone in Mosul. So I suggest you go ahead and edit. Jzlcdh (talk) 17:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

When I will have the consensus of a few more editors I will try to edit it. ThanksRon1978 (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Courtier1978 (talk • contribs)

I have added information on the subject. Ron1978 (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Courtier1978 (talk • contribs)

The 2015 section needs a lot of improvement. We can add information in the human rights and in the women section, if others agree as well.Ron1978 (talk) 10:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Courtier1978 (talk • contribs)

eh??

Since the predominantly Shia-Muslim led government of Iraq in Baghdad cut off in June 2015, salaries[4] (that ISIL allegedly exploited by stealing a generous percentage[5]) which it paid to city workers including nurses, doctors,[6] supply and services workers, road repair workers, waste management workers and other infrastructure roles, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.246.180.205 (talk) 05:20, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixed awkward sentence Katie alsop (talk) 08:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Updates In Progress - Will Try to Finish in 2015

I have made some progress on the valuable inputs in this talk page and continue to seek citations as noted. I have tried to remove some bias. I have re-written the lead page but am stuck on sources for population at the time being. Still working on that so please give me some indulgence. Katie alsop (talk) 00:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: Edited lead to move some content to "History" and edited sentences for brevity. Further work to do. Katie alsop (talk) 08:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Errors/bias in lead

The last paragraph of the lead states:

In June 2014, the terrorist organization ISIL took over the city during the 2014 Northern Iraq offensive.[4][5][6] As of August 2014, the city's new ISIL administration is functional, but power cuts are frequent.[7] According to recently released footage, in Mosul, women are subjugated and religious minorities, especially Shiites, are persecuted.[8]

'terrorist' is NPOV. Replace with salafi-jihadi militant for precision 'power cuts are frequent' is non-sourced and violates NPOV. power cuts are 'frequent' all over iraq because the infrastructure is poor (there were large protests in Baghdad and the south during the summer because the power was out) , whereas this article is trying to imply it is the fault of IS in reality despite the US targeting civilian power infrastructure (possibly a warcrime), IS has repaired it many times and power/electricity is more available in Mosul than the rest of Iraq 'women are subjugated' again unsourced and violates NPOV. if you think Islamic shariah law mandating hijab is 'subjugation', that is merely your opinion and not an encyclopedic fact. Needs to be removed. 'religious minorities are persecuted', against non sourced and violates NPOV as well as a self-contradiction. The article states, and it is a fact, that Shia and Christians have left the city, so how can they be persecuted by IS in Mosul when they no longer reside there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.186.112.132 (talk) 17:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixed Katie alsop (talk) 00:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a nonsense! It is CLEARLY NOT NPOV to state ISIL are terrorists, almost ALL governments list them as terrorists, as do the United Nations! As for religious minorities being persecuted, THEY ARE, and there is a WEALTH of evidence for this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.25.101 (talk) 22:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

RECENTism

This article suffers badly from recentism (WP:RECENT). Mosul has a history of thousands of years, but almost half of it details just the last ten years of its history, especially the last year and a half. I think the current history (of which there is obviously lots of sources) needs to be summarised, removing a lot of the minor details and the full story of the US invasion and ISIL invasion moved to sub-articles. Ashmoo (talk) 10:50, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

My revert

There has been a lot of edit warring in the last few hours, and a huge chunk of unsourced text was also reinstated. I've gone back to the "last best version", with no opinion regarding whether or not it is the correct version. Please will those who were warring discuss their edits before reinstating them, and please will people desist from adding unsourced information and non-neutral language. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The Kurdish Name

I add kurdish name for this city because 40% kurd live there

I hope every one understand this fact

Kurdistantolive (talk) 17:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

In This city live 40% Kurds Kurdistantolive (talk) 23:22, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Do you have any source? Beshogur (talk) 12:08, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Good you answer me , I will give source just waiting , OK

Regards Kurdistantolive (talk) 11:30, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

see this source [5] (arabic) Kurdistantolive (talk) 11:38, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Map?

This article would be improved by a map of the city. Surely there is some public domain map.Edison (talk) 18:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Edits from Students of Islamic Art

Hello, some of the contributions we made to the article of Mosul was we completely eliminated the prior section of metalwork under the arts section. The paragraph that was there before was plagiarized from Britanicca and lacked any citations. We went in and added three main sub-sections to the metalwork section of arts and provided credible references. The subsections are divided between background, design, and scholarship, we felt, as a collective, that these were some of the most important themes to address but believe that there is still so much to discover within this topic. We also added images of Mosul metalwork, that demonstrated the intricacies of the designs, we felt that as. a visual art it must have some visual examples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by K nava48 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Metalwork?

why off topic and detailed needs removal to its own article....History of metallurgy in Mosul--Moxy 🍁 07:24, 10 December 2019 (UTC)