Talk:Motorsport

Expand on each motorsports topic?

Although each section under Racing has a main article, could it still be beneficial to the reader to give a bit more background to each of the topics specifically closed wheel racing? I would like to expand on them all. --Nickpain (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Why motorsport redirects to Auto racing?

I guess motorsport refers to other sports like motorcycle and boat racing. So is it correct to redirect to auto racing? I also think that some interwiki links make a mistake by linking their general motorsport page to the English Auto racing page. SharShar 22:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

External link?

Is the external link to Grandprix-Live.com justified? Looks almost like advertising. RJFJR (talk) 01:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

MotoSport

Is "MotoSport" widely used to refer to motorcycle racing, as stated in the second paragraph? In my experience, it's not in Australia (where I live), so I'm wondering if it is elsewhere. DH85868993 (talk) 02:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

No, not at all - and I can count from over half a century of direct experience of professional British automotive engineering and a passionate follower of all forms of autosports. I'm guessing some over-enthusiastic wikipedian is merely trying to pad out articles with buzz words which they think are appropriate. Being as it is uncited, I shall remove that sentence. 87.115.152.143 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Motorsport for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Motorsport is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Motorsport until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:32, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Race Organisation

I've added this section as there seems to be very little on this topic. I could not find anything on senior race officials, their duties and responsibilities. I feel this should be expanded a bit. Wolfmartyn (talk) 15:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Table

The Spanish version of this article has a neat table which classifies several motorsport disciplines. We should create a similar one here and even expand it. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Sheikh Khalid Al Qassimi - WRC Rally Finland 2017.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Motorsport

@Carfan568 Can you find a reliable source in common use from the last 100 years to support that "Motorsport" includes boats and aircraft?

On Automobile sport, I wonder what you might consider a better name for rock crawling, record attempts, rallying, autotesting... None of these are auto racing. This was agreed to be 'motorsport' in the discussion here.

I'd be grateful for a constructive discussion with you on this. Rally Wonk (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll also add that powerboating, air sports and motorcycle sport were all created by and contributed to by those familiar with the matters without any contribution here. I don't see any need to duplicate those articles here, and if that isn't the intention by any editor who suggests it should, the first sentence should not suggest it will be. Rally Wonk (talk) 23:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I could easily find numerous sources which support that "motorsport" includes boats and aircraft, here are some examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11].

It would be much more logical for Automobile sport to be a redirect to Auto racing and have that page cover both of those terms since they are very closely related (and "Auto racing" can be the article title if it is the WP:COMMONNAME). That was basically the case until you recently removed rallying and other disciplines that are not technically racing from that article. Certainly I think it is far less ideal for Automobile sport to be a redirect to Motorsport since motorsport also includes motorcycles, aircraft and boats. The discussion which you linked did not establish a clear consensus on this. Carfan568 (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Those links are awesome thank you.

Automobile sport is an official name incorporating non-racing disciplines, and auto racing is only common to auto racing (maybe, I've never seen it in common use). Car motorsport is just 'motorsport' wherever I look. Pointed out in that conversation link, you cannot link the other languages' 'motorsport' and 'automobile sport' to the same page, so really we could need two articles in English for 'motorsport'.

I suggest the car based use of the term, being more popular, justifies this bias in this article. All your links help show the other forms prefer specific sport names whereas motorsport in car context will generally categorise into disciplines or series.Rally Wonk (talk) 01:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

There are sources that use the term "auto racing" when referring to rallying, hillclimbing and other such events. See the following sources, for example: [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22]. There are also many sources that otherwise use "auto racing" or "automobile sport" instead of "motorsport", see [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29]. I do think that the Motorsport article should give more weight to more prominent forms of motorsport, but I don't think that it makes sense to make it heavily weighted towards automobile sport since the whole point of the term "motorsport" is to be a global term for all sports utilising motorised vehicles. Carfan568 (talk) 03:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The problem I think we face comes from how motorsport operates in the USA is unusual compared to most of the rest of the world, which has influenced common language use there and in Canada, where all of your sources 12-22 are from (including Britannica). There's no one prominent body like elsewhere, see my user page (on rally racing) for a brief explanation of what I mean.

Whatever the reason, to me, it's clear Auto racing is a North American term, whereas motorsport is used in the rest of the world. A, B, C, D, E, F, G (some of these include motorcycles). I'm not sure how this helps arrange these articles, but at least it shows where I'm coming from.

Your sources 27 and 28 are used in context of racing autos, I don't think they are trying to replace Motorsport. #26 is the FIA, the international body, this is why I called it an official term earlier. I'm not sure of anywhere it's used commonly. Many national Motorsport bodies officially call it 'motorsport for four wheels or above'.

16 clearly used Wikipedia as a source, Who knows how many more have too. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

None of the sources that you mentioned use "motorsport" to specifically describe "auto racing" or "automobile sport". You could maybe argue about the Motorsport UK one, but even they had to specify that they are a governing body for "four-wheel motorsport", and there are other organisations that use "automobile sport" in their names instead ([30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], and another one). See also the following sources using "automobile sport": [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41]. "Auto racing" as a term is also not exclusively used in the USA, as evidenced by the following sources: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53], [54], [55]. Even if that was not the case, it would make no sense to ignore the USA since it is the biggest English-speaking country. There is also nothing stopping us from covering both "automobile sport" and "auto racing" at the same article; see WP:AND, for example. Carfan568 (talk) 03:34, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The governing bodies have to be clear for legal reasons. Sources of the speakers/translations of other languages are not helpful.

I do not suggest ignoring USA. I suggest it does not overrule English used elsewhere. I don't propose a battle to the win.

There is something stopping us covering automobile sport and auto racing in the same article, besides not being able to use official terms (all of your sources 30-35+1) for article titles, this is why we are having this conversation. I've already accepted that auto racing is the widely used term in North America, but it makes no sense whatsoever to just as many people outside North America, unless you can tell us why people who go Mud bogging (length), drifting (motorsport) (judged on points scored on angle), and rallying (average speed imposed, particularly in navigational rallies) should be considered to be racing. Apologies for the analogy, but are football games racing for goals?

"None of the sources that you mentioned use "motorsport" to specifically describe "auto racing" or "automobile sport"." - That's a non-point. I could also say they don't specifically use "auto racing" or "automobile sport", which is also the exact same non-point. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

In fact, maybe we should disregard the North American use of English, with a hatnote to auto racing? As the top of this page says:

Just a suggestion. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:AND says "Sometimes two or more closely related or complementary concepts are most sensibly covered by a single article", and I think that is clearly the case with automobile sport and auto racing. Non-racing automobile sport can easily be a section within the Auto racing article, and the differences between the terms can be explained in the lead section (or somewhere else within the article). The Auto racing article has covered rallying since 2002, and there was also a discussion in 2008 which established consensus that Motorsport should cover any motorised sport. I don't think you have gained consensus to change these. If you want, we could maybe add a hatnote to the Motorsport article saying something like "This article is about all forms of motorised sport. For four-wheel motorsport, see Auto racing." Carfan568 (talk) 22:09, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

How about reverting to your edit on motorsport, but keep automobile sport to motorsport. It's clear to me now that we have an International English and American English situation regarding article titles which must be based on common use, and automobile sport is not American English nor particularly common anywhere, but is the official international term for more than racing. There doesn't have to be just one article and unless you can rationale why non-racing forms of auto racing is even a sensible way to talk, we will never agree on that.

I'll repeat, and i hope this is a fair comment, that what I don't like about the first sentence of motorsport saying it should include powerboating and air sports, is that if you search those articles for Motorsport, you get nothing back. Also nobody ever added any of that content to motorsport. I think a neutral reader would expect that. Rally Wonk (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

You are focusing too much on the article title; WP:OOS states: "The lead, ideally the introductory sentence or at least introductory paragraph, of an article, should make clear what the scope of the article is." Therefore we can include the definition of automobile sport in the lead section and it can be part of the scope of the article, even if the article title is "Auto racing". The article title is a compromise since there isn't a perfect one, and that is why we have redirects, hatnotes, and mentions of alternative names and closely related terms in the lead. And we don't need to use "non-racing forms of auto racing", because something like "non-racing automobile sport" could be used instead.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the term "motorsport" is included in the powerboating and air sports articles, because Wikipedia is not a reliable source and those articles could be a work in progress. You could also look at List of motorsport championships, where both water surface racing and aircraft sport are included. Carfan568 (talk) 03:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

On WP:OOS, the current Auto racing lead: "Auto racing (also known as car racing, motor racing, or automobile racing) is a motorsport involving the racing of automobiles for competition." Pretty clear and longstanding consensus. So asking me to accept Automobile sport on Auto racing is like suggesting redirecting fruit to a section on apples.

I really can't understand how Automobile sport redirecting to an expanded motorsport, with a section on automobile sport, is a problem. Unless you can present a reason instead of why it can be seen as OK going to Auto racing, I think the conversation is finished. Rally Wonk (talk) 13:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Automobile sport redirecting to motorsport is a problem because motorsport includes automobiles, motorcycles, powerboats and aircraft, whereas automobile sport only includes automobiles. At least in American English, auto racing is synonymous with automobile sport. We can easily expand the lead paragraph of the Auto racing article with something like "The broader term automobile sport encompasses all sporting aspects of automobiles". The page also covered rallying and other non-racing automobile sport for over 20 years until you recently removed them, and those are still covered at Outline of auto racing. If you still disagree, we should ask or wait for more opinions. Carfan568 (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Redirecting to a section within the scope of another article is not the same as redirecting to a whole article and claiming the terms as one and the same. Automobile sport is motorsport, it even says that on auto racing.

A better hatnote would remove confusion over the scope of the article, because it is not intuitive to many non-Americans: eg. "Auto racing is an American term for all forms of automobile based motorsport, including non-racing disciplines". Not being a common term, there should be a further hatnote: "Automobile sport redirects here, this is the official term used by governing bodies"'. Rally Wonk (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I will request a third opinion. Carfan568 (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

One more point: Football is a great example to follow. It is broken down to groups and codes, ultimately American Football and Association Football exist under those titles despite not being common names to those involved in either, a point mentioned in their articles and frequently disputed on each's talk pages. Their is also an entire article on local language use.

No language won a battle for supremacy. I hope the same level of respect can be shown within motorsport, so perhaps creation of standalone automobile sport is possible. Rally Wonk (talk) 14:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll add that I think it would be unnecessary to create a standalone Automobile sport article since there are not that many prominent non-racing automobile sport disciplines. However, I think it could make some sense to rename the Auto racing article as Automobile sport (although "Auto racing" is the WP:COMMONNAME in American English). Carfan568 (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I'm here from the RFC on the WP:Motorsport talk page.

Considering this is language issue, I doubt a consensus will be reached that makes natural sense for everyone involved. In my opinion the naming and piping of the pages being discussed should be left as is.

My suggestion is to add hat notes to the article pages in question, as opposed their talk pages (where few will see them). These hatnotes can explain which variant of English the article is written in, and can include pipes leading to other articles readers of respective English variants might expect to encounter.

In the cases of which types of competition involving self-propelled vehicles should or should not be considered as "racing/autosport/motorsport," I feel that broadly speaking a similar type of solution will offer the best chance of reaching consensus on article text.

In both cases, the goal would be to agree upon an inclusive, rather than an exclusive, solution.

RegalZ8790 (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• Since a third editor has chimed in, I am removing this request from 3O. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)