Talk:Muhammad Ali Jinnah/Archive 7

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Second world war and lahore resolution

This sentence is no NPOV - In September 1944, Jinnah and Gandhi, who had by then been released from his palatial prison, met formally at the Muslim leader's home on Malabar Hill in Bombay. Agreed, that Gandhi was imprisoned in the aga khan palace but does adding the word 'palatial' before the word 'prison' not convey a sense of mockery or trying to hint that being imprisoned in the aga khan palace is nothing serious just because the place of imprisonment happens to be an old palace? Suggest removing the words 'his palatial' or rewrite this sentence as In September 1944, Jinnah and Gandhi, who had by then been released from his imprisonment in the Aga Khan Palace , met formally at the Muslim leader's home on Malabar Hill in Bombay. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.40.132.117 (talk • contribs)

User:Wehwalt [1]. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest saying "released from house arrest" or simply "released" (i.e. strike "from his palatial prison"). No mockery intended, I assure.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that "palatial prison" should be removed. Krok6kola (talk) 00:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

It now says "confinement", which is accurate. "Imprisonment" might be too strong as he was not put in a prison like Nehru and others were.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Kindly check the sec been mentioned was Sunni Muslim but he converted as Khoja asna e ashri Shia

Kindly check the sec been mentioned was Sunni Muslim but he converted as Khoja asna e ashri Shia Ejazpedia (talk) 09:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Jinnah's sectarian religious beliefs, Sunni vs Shia, and those of his families, seem to be the subject of many edits to this article. Is there a way we can settle this definitively?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Kindly check the sec been mentioned was Sunni Muslim but he converted as Khoja asna e ashri Shia

Kindly check the sec been mentioned was Sunni Muslim but he converted as Khoja asna e ashri Shia Ejazpedia (talk) 09:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Jinnah's sectarian religious beliefs, Sunni vs Shia, and those of his families, seem to be the subject of many edits to this article. Is there a way we can settle this definitively?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Expand his religion and belief section

Jinnah was no doubt was a muslim, just a difference of opinion on his affiliation of sect. Please expand — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.199.31 (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Potential FAR

I am not satisfied that this is decent enough to be a FA. The last decade has seen extraordinary scholarship on Jinnah (and ML), none of which finds a mention. If I am just picking a single point:

• Balraj Puri in his journal article about Jinnah suggests that the Muslim League president, after the 1937 vote, turned to the idea of partition in "sheer desperation". - How does Puri's opinion matter at all? He is not a scholar but a human rights activist. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Governor-General section lacks information about his reforms

After becoming the Governor-General of Pakistan Jinnah took many steps to establish Pakistan as a country in the international community. These included the establishment establishment of Pakistan's first bank "The State bank of Pakistan" and him securing entry of Pakistan into the UN. He also made attempts to convince Pakistanis to feel as one people and to establish an administration which understood that it worked for the people and tried to make sure the army had enough officers by appointing 500 British officers. 2400:ADC5:1A0:9300:C5F2:9E20:E3AB:784B (talk) 08:23, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Add them then with sources. Wehwalt (talk) 09:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Jinnah’s family origins

There is another report about Jinnah’s Family origins, which contains his own word, it must also be added to the page because these are his own words.

According to The Book: Jinnah and his times written by Aziz beg, Jinnah himself said that his male ancestor was a Rajput from Sahiwal in the Punjab who had married into the Ismaili Khojas and settled in Kathiawar (Beg 1986: 888).

Rsza1 (talk) 09:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Further reading

@Wehwalt, the four refs in further reading are all cited so should presumably be moved to the sources list. I would do so myself but am not sure that the page numbers in the longer citations are those in the short sfns? – Aza24 (talk) 22:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

• I don't know what edition. If they are used as citations they should be deleted from the further reading list.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Legacy

@Wehwalt:, the text you moved was sourced to reliable sources published by Macmillan and Routledge--academic publishers. That being said, it seems that you have no objection to the restoration of the material if it is attributed to the authors of the texts. I will add the atribution and restore the material. Thanks. Azuredivay (talk) 09:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic Muhajir

Jinnah was an ethnic muhajir because:

• He was Gujarati, not a pakistani son of soil
• He was born and spent his childhood in Karachi, but lived in Mumbai at time of partition
• His migration was not before he was born (that was his grandfather), it was in 1947 from Mumbai to Karachi
• Check the boldfaced clause of the definition I copied from the muhajir article, early life and birthplace has no role in classifying one as a muhajir

1. Migrated to Pakistan from Muslim minority provinces of the subcontinent at the time of partition,
2. Is not considered as belonging to any of the nationalities of Pakistan, neither Punjabi, nor Sindhi, nor Baloch, nor Pakhtun,
3. Migrated from those areas of East Punjab whose language and culture were not Punjabi.

Source: https://dailytimes.com.pk/100832/the-mqm-and-the-military/

My edits are not at all contradictory of the muhajir article, but support it. FlameAlpha (talk) 04:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The Mumbai house he built in 1936 and lived in for 10 years only for political purposes? That's sounds like a very forced interpretation of the identity "Muhajir". You can't erase his place of birth and where he was raised based on that. Let's not forget that according to many scholarly sources, the identity slowly evolved in urban Sindh due to similar experience of migration and similar political interests. FOR EXAMPLE: "Over a period of a few decades, these disparate groups sharing the common experience of migration, and political opposition to the military regime of Ayub Khan and his civilian successor Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto evolved or assimilated into a distinct ethnic grouping."

So, how was he "CONSIDERED an ethnic Muhajir" ? (Emphasis on the past tense)

ANOTHER ONE:- "The migrants were compensated for their properties lost in India by being granted the evacuee property left behind by the departing Hindus." https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/36353 Was Jinnah compensated for his loss of property in exchange for a Hindu family's property? NO.

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:-

He owned property in Karachi too before 1947 that was never abandoned! See the Quaid-e-Azam House. Owned from 1944!

Uzek (talk) 05:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Last of all, his "Gujarati" background and the history of his parents migration to Karachi isn't censored at all. Every detail about his background is mentioned. Let's just leave it to the reader what they "consider" Jinnah to be. Labelling him with newly evolved terminologies doesn't achieve anything but a sense of laying a "claim" to him Uzek (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Clearly stated that Jinnah only spent 16 in Karachi before moving to England, then spent 4 years in england. Which means he spent nearly 51 years in bombay:

• In 1892, Sir Frederick Leigh Croft, a business associate of Jinnahbhai Poonja, offered young Jinnah a London apprenticeship with his firm, Graham's Shipping and Trading Company.
• Although he returned to Karachi, he remained there only a short time before moving to Bombay.
• At the age of 20, Jinnah began his practice in Bombay, the only Muslim barrister in the city. English had become his principal language and would remain so throughout his life. His first three years in the law, from 1897 to 1900, brought him few briefs.
• When Jinnah Poonja also died unexpectedly, Mohammad Ali Jinnah took full responsibility for his younger brothers and sisters. Fatima Jinnah became Mohammad's ward "at the age of eight," she reported, and she lived with him from the death of her father until he married for the second time in 1918. Mohammad oversaw Fatima's education, allowing her to enter the Bandra Convent school (Bombay) in 1902 despite her strict Islamic upbringing.

His politics:

• In September 1923, Jinnah was elected as Muslim member for Bombay in the new Central Legislative Assembly.
• In September 1944, Jinnah hosted Gandhi, recently released from confinement, at his home on Malabar Hill in Bombay.

Most importantly:

• On 7 August, Jinnah, with his sister and close staff, flew from Delhi to Karachi in Mountbatten's plane, and as the plane taxied, he was heard to murmur, "That's the end of that."
• Jinnah lived in the house till Partition of India in 1947, after which he moved to Karachi in Pakistan.

He flew to Pakistan on 7 August 1947, not before but AFTER many muhajirs since a large amount of muhajirs fled india after 1946 calcutta killings.

As for his birthplace, being a muhajir has nothing to do with birthplace. It depends on where you were at the time of partition. FlameAlpha (talk) 16:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

And btw I have provided 2 reliable sources which claim that Jinnah was a Muhajir:

1. Pakistan at the crossroads : domestic dynamics and external pressures
2. https://www.dawn.com/news/1357045

FlameAlpha (talk) 16:20, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

1. First, look up the definition of an immigrant: "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immigrant He owned property in Karachi from which he moved back and forth. You didn't comment on the Quaid-e-Azam House he purchased in 1943? He never abandoned Karachi. Owning property in Bombay doesn't mean he can be classified as an "immigrant" if he abandoned his property there. If owning foreign property and living in it makes you a "son of soil" of that place, then I can point you towards loads of examples where that isn't the case. For example, the Avenfield House owned by Nawaz Sharif in London where he currently lives. Is he a British citizen? Will selling the Avenfield House to live in Pakistan make him an "immigrant" to Pakistan? NO. Uzek (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

2. Second,  pay attention to this paragraph which you didn't respond to either. "Over a period of a few decades, these disparate groups sharing the common experience of migration, and political opposition to the military regime of Ayub Khan and his civilian successor Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto evolved or assimilated into a distinct ethnic grouping." https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/36353 The term Muhajir means immigrant and it's identity as an ETHNIC GROUP evolved over in the province of Sindh only because of similar POLITICAL interests and persecution. Those in Punjab don't identify with this "ethnic" identity but rather identify with their first language. So how does the sentence "He WAS considered an ethnic Muhajir" even make sense? Uzek (talk) 11:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

3. Lastly, I can also provide you with "reliable sources" to counter your so called "reliable sources". For example, this one down below: which declares the term "Muhajir" to be an alternative/synonym to the "Urdu-speaking" community, which is true to a large extent. Most urdu speakers and other Pakistanis do consider these terminologies to be synonymous and any remaining "others" are being assimilated under the Urdu-speaking umbrella. This includes MQM (Muhajir nationalists) who often speak for persecution of "Urdu speakers",to denote THEMSELVES. Jinnah on the other hand, was a Gujarati with his first language being GUJARATI.

See: https://www.refworld.org/docid/403dd20c0.html

Please debunk all of my 3 points raised with new valid arguments and avoid repetition of old arguments. See WP:REHASH

Uzek (talk) 11:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Believe me this argument is not going to get us anywhere. We can end this by: both of us summarizing our arguments and letting an administrator decide. What do you think? FlameAlpha (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay. Where do you involve a third person for intervention? Uzek (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:DRR/3O FlameAlpha (talk) 10:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Can a link to the archived discussion be left here for future reference?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

The *archived* discussion can be found here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_229

Uzek (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

That will change upon archiving. I'm just reminding that we should have a permalink to the archive on this page. Wehwalt (talk) 23:24, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Pakistani movement and nationalism

The summary page of this article doesn't have any summarized info regarding Jinnah's leadership of the Pakistani Nationalist Movement during the British Raj, like founders of other countries have on Wikipedia. It should be edited to have information regarding his legacy. Historianist01 (talk) 12:52, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

What would you propose? Wehwalt (talk) 13:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I propose an edit to the main page regarding Jinnah's legacy and edit it in the style like Ataturk (Founder of Turkiye) and Mahatma Gandhi (Indian independence activist) Historianist01 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Striking out disruptive comments by sockpuppet. Gotitbro (talk) 14:10, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2023

Replace Quaid-e-Azam with Quaid-i-Azam Syed Osman Naeem 07:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callmemirela 🍁 13:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2023

In the Caucus Case, it is written that Jinnah did not win the case, while it is clear that he had indeed won the case. The Wikipedia page with the title Caucus Case clearly says so along with other genuine sources. Zahid1326 (talk) 13:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 17:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

@Zahid1326: Either claim that he won the case or lost it remains unreferenced on both articles. Kindly provide reliable sources to support that. I have marked the statement with a citation needed tag for now. Idell (talk) 04:45, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2023

182.189.124.46 (talk) 21:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

His another birth date is 9 October 1875 found in his school records so please give me permission to edit this

Not done This is covered in footnote "a" to the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

Muhammad Ali Jinnah, revered as Quaid-e-Azam ("Great Leader") and Baba-e-Qaum ("Father of the Nation") in Pakistan, stands tall in the pantheon of South Asia's political leaders. His pivotal role in the creation of Pakistan, amidst a cauldron of political maneuverings and regional tensions, solidified his legacy as a leading political strategist and visionary statesman. HassaanHassuni (talk) 10:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Urdu name

Shouldn't the Urdu name be removed considering the article literally says Jinnah didn't speak Urdu? He is mentioned in many Urdu sources but that's not a reason to add the Urdu name. ― Ö S M A N  (talk · contribs) 10:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@EmperorÖsmanIXXVMD: I believe it is guided by the policies relevant / taken at WT:PAK, and not the subject's personal choices. Since Urdu is the national language and lingua-franca of Pakistan, it should stay or that's probably the reason why it is there. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

There's no such guideline here, nor in WP:MOSPAK. ― Ö S M A N  (talk · contribs) 15:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@EmperorÖsmanIXXVMD: Then you should discuss the matter in those projects. As a general rule of thumb, I've seen names in Urdu written in Pakistani biographies. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC)