Talk:Muhammad Bassiri

DOB

The date of birth from [1]. --Zuccherinodolce 16:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

December 2021

@MakhzenHuman: the so-called Moroccan sources that you've based most of your changes on are a) unreliable and b) contradict what all reliable and scholarly sources say. The fact that he was born in Tan Tan cannot be attributed to the Polisario since it's easily be supported by a raft of RS. You also made some unexplained changes and removed sourced content without a valid reason. M.Bitton (talk) 21:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, how is Medi1 unreliable? If you could cite a paragraph under WP:RELIABILITY that Medi1 qualifies under, that would be good. If you could cite your "raft of RS" instead of a dead (and quite Polisario-biased) site. (archival version show SADR flag) I've spent a few hours researching this and I feel like this would be kind-of unfair to throw it all out because I said the Polisario claimed it instead of the Spanish, perhaps you should try to do a good-faith improve and correct my errors instead. None of my sources have been in the blacklist cited under WP:DEPS. I have done a good-faith effort to be as objective as I can, now is your turn :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

They are clearly unreliable since they are contradicting the scholarly sources. Like I said, the fact that he was born in Tan Tan is easily attributable to a raft of RS (if you want me to cite some, let me know). M.Bitton (talk) 21:56, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, okay no problem, please cite the scholarly sources, I will fix it accordingly. I assumed that in the case where there was a conflict between two birthplaces, one being more credible than the other, they should both be included, see Kim Jong-il's page (I admit it's a horrible example, but still...), :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a question of a couple of sources contradicting each other. The sources that you're basing your changes on are contradicting the reliable sources (we already have three of them cited in the article). M.Bitton (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, the only source saying that he was born in Tan Tan isn't quite reliable (in my opinion), what makes you lead to the conclusion that this is more reliable than Medi1's editorial team? :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Like I said, we already have three reliable sources in the article. You can also Google "Muhammad Bassiri born Tan Tan" and help yourself to some more from Google books. M.Bitton (talk) 22:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I have googled that earlier, don't worry. I'm going through a power cut right now so I'll check out your books later (editing through my phone, nothing to do with gazoduc), will keep you updated :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I've checked out the books, seem like they're probably scholarly, however, the cover for 2 books are a SADR flag, I'm taking that as I will. I think the Moroccan claim should still be addressed, as it's the government and seemingly their family's (and their lawyers, which I may contact) stance on the matter. In the case of KJI, scholarly sources and South Korea say he was born in the USSR, and North Korea say that he was born in North Korea, Both government stances are shown, with the scholarly one being prioritized, but both governments claim to be the sole government of Korea. :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:28, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The sources saying that he was born in Tan Tan are both scholarly and WP:INDEPENDENT, i.e, the exact opposite of the sources that you want to use. M.Bitton (talk) 22:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, not disputing this, may you explain the difference between this case and KJI's page though? How is Medi1 not WP:INDEPENDENT, they were (and still are) privately owned and claim to be independent by the time of the publishing. :-) MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't usually compare articles. With regard to Medi1, there is no such thing as "independent" Moroccan media when it comes to Western Sahara (Besides, their "SaharaMarocain" hashtag says it all). M.Bitton (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, while I do agree that the editorial line is pro-Morocco in regards to the Sahara issue, "no such thing" is quite a pessimist statement though, liberty is granted in the constitution overall ;-), Okay, I don't want to turn this into a debate about Algeria&Morocco. I see that Kim Jong-il and Kim Man-il's pages have disputed birth/death locations, in a similar situation, two governments say different things, in this case, the Moroccan government & his family claims he was born in one location, the Spanish government claims he was born in another. Why should we not include both? MakhzenHuman (talk) 22:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The answer is very simple: the reliable and scholarly sources are unanimous in saying that he was born in Tan Tan. M.Bitton (talk) 22:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Scholarly sources also say that KJI was born in the USSR. Unreliable North Korean sources say that he was born in Korea. Yet the page has both. Why shouldn't this be the same for Bassiri? MakhzenHuman (talk) 23:01, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't compare oranges to apples. All I know is that in this case, you are presenting two unreliable Moroccan sources to contradict what all the reliable, scholarly and independent sources say. M.Bitton (talk) 23:04, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The article set a precedent, I believe the article's precedent is similar enough to be used here, otherwise this is hypocritical MakhzenHuman (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any WP policy or guideline that says that. If you know of one, please do share. M.Bitton (talk) 23:15, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Please, don't edit war. With regard to Kim Jong-il: while I don't usually compare articles, the way his birthplace is presented could have something to do with the fact that he was North Korean and that his official (fake) birth place needs a mention. This isn't the case here since Bassiri is not Moroccan. M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for that, the Moroccan government however claims that he is Moroccan, I might seek dispute resolution for this as I don't know that to do regarding this. MakhzenHuman (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The reliable sources don't mention such a claim. Feel free to seek a dispute resolution. M.Bitton (talk) 23:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I've posted on the noticeboard, changing the image to a copyright-free one is the last edit I will do until this is resolved, I also believe that the booking photograph is not exactly appropriate as it was taken by Spanish authorities before he died and doesn't help his memory, I'm glad to have a free-use replacement. v/r :-) & sorry for the disturbance MakhzenHuman (talk) 23:35, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

January 2022

@SegoviaKazar: Where he was born is described in the article following what most cited sources say. Why cherry pick one to stick in the infobox? M.Bitton (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Instead of undo my modification 2 times with the first "NOPE", you may start with talk.

Tantan was in the spanish protectorate of Morocco [[2]], it's sourced. What's the problem ? --SegoviaKazar (talk) 23:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

You don't get to replace recent sources with ancient ones. M.Bitton (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

"Add what you want, but don't undo my sourced content" ...worrying.

Why did you start this editing war for a sourced modification that poses no controversy?

I think you don't understand how the wikipedia encyclopedia works.

For a historical fact, a historian is obviously more relevant than a person of linguistic qualification on such a subject.

The works are centered on the subject and historians.

I try to ignore your provocations but it will be necessary to change attitude.

Tan tan was returned to Morocco following the Cintra Accords following a war as the sources indicate.

Note that I limited myself to the more standard term retrocession but I could have used returned as there is in the source. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

What a clownish comment. So according to you, the crap that you cherry picked is more reliable and more relevant than a scholarly source about the primary topic. Why the hell would we need a historian to talk about an event that took place in living memory? Anyway, since I don't want to engage in an edit war, I'll just tag it for now (until I decide what to do). M.Bitton (talk) 16:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)