Talk:Muhammad Muhsin Khan

Nationality/Ethnicity

TheAafi It's incorrect to use Pakistani when referring to Dr. Khan for the following reasons:

• He was born in 1927, 20 years before Pakistan existed, before anyone could even be referred to as being Pakistani
• His full name is written as Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan bin Muhi-ud-din bin Ahmad Al-Essa Al-Khoashki Al-Jamandi Al-Afghani and he belongs to the Afghan tribe Kheshgi.
• Per WP:ETHNICITY: "this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident". We have no source showing that he was in fact a citizen, national, or permanent resident of Pakistan. If you want to make this case, then he should in fact be listed as British Indian, since Pakistan did not exist at the time of his birth.
• Per WP:ETHNICITY: "if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." If we follow this, then he should be listed as Saudi Arabian. He became a notable figure exclusively because of his work on the english translations of The Quran and Sahih Bukhari. Before, during, and since that time he has been a resident of The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, not Pakistan.
• Dr. Khan left the British India/Pakistan in his late teens or early twenties to pursue his education in England. Since that time, he has been living in The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and he did not return to Pakistan to live there or become a permanent resident.
• In regards to your comment "nationality, no ethnicity": in addition to being an ethnicity, Afghan is also a nationality. It is the official and correct demonym for someone from Afghanistan.
• I know that Facebook is not a source, but please see the below from Dr. Yasir Qadhi (someone who has actually met and spoken to Dr. Muhsin Khan on multiple occasions)

https://m.facebook.com/100044276387262/posts/360648752087668/?sfnsn=mo

"I was fortunate enough to interact with him a few times during my years in Madinah, and there are some amazing stories and personal anecdotes that perhaps I'll share one day.

He was born in 1927 in Afghanistan."

WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 17:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Sulaiman Nadwi, and many more people were born in "India" but attained Pakistani citizenship, and thus they are referred as Pakistanis, not as Indians, despite India being ethnicity. Afghan might be a nationality but Muhsin Khan didn't have the citizenship of Afghanistan, and it is weird to call him so. If he had attained Saudi Arabia nationality, feel free to refer him as so. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 17:24, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheAafi: Do we know if Dr. Khan did in fact did obtain Pakistani citizenship/nationality (like in the case of Nadwi that you are referring to)? Can you provide a source for this? You mention that he did not have citizenship of Afghanistan. Do we have a definitive source that says that he had citizenship of Pakistan? If you are requesting me to provide proof that he attained Saudi Arabian nationality before calling him Saudi Arabian, then I will request that you provide proof that he attained Pakistani nationality before calling him Pakistani.

Also, you completely disregarded my other points of concern with using Pakistani. You say that it would be weird to call him Afghan. I find that strange because Dr. Khan refers to himself as Al-Afghani and that is all that we really need to justify this edit. Not to mention all of the other reasons and points provided. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 17:28, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I have updated the lede. Best. Hope that clears the confusion. Thanks. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 17:37, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheAafi: While I would say that it is still accurate to refer to him as being and Afghan (since he refers to himself as such), for the sake of reaching WP:CON and resolving this issue in a reasonable and timely manner, I am ok with the most recent edits that you have made to the lead section. I appreciate your well mannered and well intended back and forth dialogue and I am glad we could reach a middle ground that we can all agree on.

One final thing to add though, you mentioned his translation of The Quran into english in the lead section but his translation of Sahih Bukhari is not mentioned. That should be added to the lead section as well. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

WikiEditUsername7, Perhaps I may update the article at the availability of more sources that discuss him, because this work seems to have discussed him, and I hope to get its access. I skipped the other one because there's no separate article on that but it is fine if you want to include that. I have no problem with this. My approach to Islamic biographies is that in a long article, I select few major names and add them in the lede, and it is impossible in smaller articles, and one major work suffices there. Thanks ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 17:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheAafi: Sounds good. I went ahead and added the mention of his translation of Sahih Al-Bukhari in the lead section. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 18:37, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheAafi: Also I feel like the most recent edit is kind of long winded.

"Muhammad Muhsin Khan was born in in 1927 in Kasur, British India. His ism (given name) was Muhammad Muhsin. His nasab (patronymic) is: Muhammad Muhsin bin Muhi-ud-Din bin Ahmed Al-Essa Al-Khoashki Al-Jamandi Al-Afghani"

Writing it as above is long winded and repetitive. It is basically saying "Muhammad Muhsin Khan was born in 1927. His name was Muhammad Muhsin Khan" Can we just do something simpler? I think it's more clear with his ism (name) in the the lead section and his nasab in the bio section. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

WikiEditUsername7, Fixed that. I too felt it was too long. Anyways thank you for pointing out. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 18:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheAafi: Ok. I think it would still be better to say in the lead Muhammad Muhsin Khan and in the bio to just simply say Muhammad Muhsin bin Muhi-ud-Din bin Ahmed Al-Essa Al-Khoashki Al-Jamandi Al-Afghani, without having to break it down or mention the concept of Nasab. But I guess it's fine how it is. There is a missing "." after the sentence on Nasab. I will add it now. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 19:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

WikiEditUsername7, It would confuse other readers who don't have idea what "bin" refers here. Recently a reviewer misunderstood Urdu phrase "Novel ka fun" as making fun of novel. So it is better to use such styles which help a reader understand what it exactly means. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 19:08, 17 July 2021 (UTC)