Talk:Mukkulathor/Archive 1

Archive 1

This page requires, 3 different sub titles dealing with Kallar, Maravar and Agamudaiyar16:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)~

ON ORIGINS

AGAMUDAIYARS,KALLARS, MARAVARS ARE MAIN CASTES OF DEVARS THEY ARE KNOWN AS MUKKULATHORS.THERE ARE LOT OF SUB CASTES IN MUKKULATHORS AND THESE WERE THE THREE IMPORTANT AMONG THEM THESE WERE THE ORGINS.

Our History

The vellalars are not associated with the mukkulathors. They are seperate castes. The mukkulathors is a caste of three prominent communities namely agamuduyar,kallar and maravar. The Nayaks or Naickers were also kings of the late pandya-nadu. The caste of Raja Raja Cholan is THEVAR his name is ARUL MOZHI THEVAR.

 Vellalar is deriviation of Mukkulathors PLEASE do not confuse this, 'VAELALA'[VAE-LA-LA] is different 

they got nothing to do with Vellalar[VELL-LA-LAR].(KALLAR,MARAVAR,GANATHATHOR AGAMUDAYAR, MELLA MELLA VANDHU SOZHIYA VELLALAR ANARGAL.)

Raja raja Cholan

The caste of Raja Raja Cholan was never mentioned by the history. 'Devar' in Tamil means divine. History doesnt cinch that it's a caste at the time of rajaraja cholan. It is believed that the mother of Raja Raja Cholan was of a low caste. If he was a Thevar, the thevars would have surely mentioned his name in functions Thevar jayanthi etc. Great kings like the Marudhu Pandiyar brothers were thevars(Agamudayars to be exact), I agree. But at the time of Raja Raja Cholan, the caste system was not established completely in Tamil Nadu [1]. This is a fact. Which means that the ancient kings of pandiya nadu or chera nadu were not specifically thevars but were of a common race. Caste was actually introduced after this era. Refer any book on ancient tamil nadu. U r right the vellalars are not at all associated with the Thevars..Thirumalai nayakar 10:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Rewriting history

Either u should reply my questions or u should leave things to the knowledgeable people. R u trying to tell me dat the only ruling caste in tamil nadu are thevars. The thevars were a brave and mighty caste. But that doesnt mean they were the only rulers of tamil-nadu. This is reasonless. The category 'KINGS' which childishly states that all the kings of tamil-nadu were thevars should be permanently excluded from the article. Otherwise this article can't be contemplated as a fact......Thirumalai nayakar 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop blabbering

I dunno y do u have this much of interest on this page.we are not claiming that all rulers of tamilnadu were thevars.From ur point naickers also ruled tamilnadu.From their title itself it is clear they were from naiacker community.If u suppose to read the life history of pasumpon muthuramalinga thevar,u will came to know that he is a descendant of pandiyan nedunchezhiyan.ur claim that cholas were from lower caste is a baseless one and it shouldnt be accepted.Here are some links that u can have a look on them,which were about the stone carvings(tamil:kalvettu) of chola kings.In that u can find the title "thevar" after the king's name.

http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=113 http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=124 http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=93 http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=154 http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=252

so it is very clear that pandiya kings,chola kings were from thevar community.--Alagesandas 12:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Who's blabbering

I never said that the thevars have nothing to do with the pandiyan empire! Did I delete the part of this article which states "Agamudayar, Kallar and Maravar formed the pandyan army!" I just don't want that line which states all the chola and pandiya kings were Thevars. Thevars are the descendants of the pandyas!! It is a perfect fact. In some places like Tirunelveli, the thevars are called as 'Pandiyar'. That is not my point. But u can't just write that all the kings of the pandya nadu were Thevars. Does that mean people like Veera-Pandiya Kattabomman and Thirumalai Nayakar were Thevars too?!! I don't think so. U must choose ur words more carefully, Mr.Alagesandas. This is something abt a caste and u can't just alter history to praise it. I am definitely not a person against the Thevars. I greatly admire the Thevars for wat they r. They were great freedom fighters and even a challenge to the Britishers!! These are impeccable facts. But don't say that kings like Nedunchezhiyan and Raja Raja Chola are Thevars. Bcoz at their time caste system was not even there. This is also a perfect fact. Refer books instead of websites!!! The article abt the Pallars says that Raja Raja Cholan was of their caste. This is also not true. The people of Tanjore(Kallars) say that Raja Raja Cholan's mother was from a poor family. It seems dats y they keep his statue outside the town. Please refer books and then write. I know abt the Thevars more than u. They r like my brothers. Thirumalai nayakar 08:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

Listen up, guys

• Stop this mud-slinging in the name of caste. Fight for some bigger cause! Caste is a stupid subject to fight upon.

• Raja Raja Cholan could have been a Thevar; I said 'could'. Please do not use Kalki's "Ponniyin Selvan" as a source of proof as it is a semi-fictional novel (that is what Kalki himself claimed, not me). He used some facts alongwith his imagination skill to write that great romantic novel (I read it some 3 times since when I was 10yrs old; the last time I read it was a couple of months ago). Hence his caste is not known for clear. And why do you bother what caste he was? He was a great ruler and that is what matters the most. By the way, the Tamil kings had many inter-caste marriages-of-alliance for political benefits and hence NONE is pure-blood of some caste!

• The celestial Gods like: Lord Indra, Agni, Vaayu, etc were also called Devars. Would that mean that the Gods were also of the caste , Thevars? Ancient Tamil Nadu did not have a proper caste system!

• Most Pandya kings were Thevars - yes. But not all Pandya kings were Thevars. Most Cholas were Thevars but not all.

Mind Swapper 01:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Right u r

Thats wat i am talking abt....Thirumalai nayakar 14:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC) Well stop abusing thevars in a page which is exclusively meant for thevars. well your harsh comments show what kinda primary education you had received.

Now mr thirumalai, check how you contradict your own statements

“But at the time of Raja Raja Cholan, the caste system was not established in Tamil Nadu”

And in the very next line you type

“It is believed that the mother of Raja Raja Cholan was of a low caste.”

And in the next reply you write

“But don't say that kings like Nedunchezhiyan and Raja Raja Chola are Thevars. Bcoz at their time caste system was not even there.”

And also check the link you give for your justification …….it clearly shows your literacy level

“ check the link “ http://www.thrikodithanam.org/tidbits.htm
It is about “How was the Caste System introduced in Kerala?” .

FYI, THIS page is concerned with tamilnadu thevars. And in the next line you ve typed “It seems dats y they keep his statue outside the town.”…..

so it is pretty much clear that your not confident in the history you knew.

You ve asked for book reference in your replies

“Refer books instead of websites!!! “

Will you shut up and exit this page if I give book references. Well I can understand who you are and for what purpose you are in this page . —Preceding unsigned comment added by SNVURDAK SERVAI (talk • contribs) 08:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC) SNVURDAK SERVAI 08:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Wat a smartass!!

this is not some kinda court. I am damn sure of wat iam talkin abt... I am jealous?! This page is jus full of crap n tall tales!! N must be altered or should be deleted!! Don't play 'smartass' with meThirumalai nayakar 04:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

DAMN SURE, MR THIRUMALAI

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

There are many concrete evidences which states that thevars are descendants of cholas. Might be you are not aware of the history which claims this fact. Your words show that you aren’t pretty much confident with your uni-directional histories.

1. http://pasumponmuthuramalingam.blogspot.com/2007/10/cholas-and-caste-system.html

2. http://pasumponmuthuramalingam.blogspot.com/2007/10/caste-system-in-cholas.html

check the above blogspot , I have given you book references for the existence of caste system during cholas .

thirumalai kindly go through these reference books and come for discussion. and for pandyan kings check out the below link

http://tamilelibrary.org/teli/rulers.html .

i can understand you have zero knowledge about pandya KINGS And kingdom. First understand pandyan kings(from 9th century) are different from madurai nayakars(15th century). Well , we have clearly mentioned all pandya kings and not all madurai kings. now I substantiate my arguments with my references

1. http://www.madurai.com/suryatours/thirumalainayakarmahal.htm

2. http://www.indiatravelogue.com/dest/tam/hist.html

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirumalai_Nayak

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)) the difference between pandyan kings and pandyan kingdom .it is a open truth that nayaks ruled pandyan territories in 15th century, but it doesn’t mean that they are PANDYAN KINGS..... MR LITERATE THIRUMALAI , WILL YOU SAY BRITISHERS ARE PANDYAN KINGS SINCE THEY RULED PANDYAN TERRITORIES?”....well I have substantiated your queries with references and you can browse any amount of good literature and make sure that you come out of your misconceptions that “nayakars are pandyan kings”…

pandyan king nedunchezhiyan is considered to be mukkulathorin kaval deivam. Since you claim that you are a literate ,you can read more about pandya kings in the following books

1. pandya mannan nedunchezhiyan

2. yanai kalvan “‘யானே கள்வன்’” by e.v rajaraja pandian

3. mukkulathorin muthar deivammana pandi munneaswarar “முக்குலத்தோரின் முழுமுதற் தெய்வமான பாண்டி முனீஸ்வரர்” BY DHAYANESWARAN

4. pandi munneswarar- therakathi deivangal by PRIYA KALAYANRAMAN http://pasumponmuthuramalingam.blogspot.com/2007/10/pandya-manan-pandy-munni.html

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

SNVURDAK SERVAI 05:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by SNVURDAK SERVAI (talk • contribs) 05:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Blogspot bluff written by some thevar

Blogspot is a place where everyone can post articles. Another false story. Gosh. I am discussin things with a bunch of LKG students who childishly come back to the square one of the discussion and make it baseless.. All i said was", the thevars were not the only people to rule the pandiya nadu", which is nothing but the truth. SNVURDAK SERVAI is jus too smart to be here. I am very impressed, Servai.(Duh!!).. The article is like some kinda Rajinikanth movie. Except dat it is aimed to shower baseless adulations on the community called thevars. For eg, "Kings: ALL THE PANDIYA KINGS,ALL THE CHOLA KINGS".. Next time try including the statement," ALL THE BRITISH KINGS,ALL THE FRENCH KINGS(Napolean) and the SPARTANS TOO!!" So that we could have another long, stupid and out of the world argument.

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

This article must be altered o deleted.Thirumalai nayakar 12:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

@ MR.THIRUMALAI, just make an honest effort to understand things before editing.

Blogspot was created exclusively by me for your ignorance and the post was posted on October 1, 2007 exclusively for you and I ve quoted authentic weblinks in my post . I ve taken my honest effort to clarify your delusions in my post.. AND MR . KURUTTU KABOTHI THIRUMALAI, understand pandiyar’s and nayakars are not the same. Nayakar’s ruled pandyan territories ( 100 %fact)…….they WERE pandiya nadu kings (100% fact)…nayakars controlled later pandyar kings (100% truth)….

MR THIRUMALAI check the wiki link. You will understand more about pandiyar kings. “ http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D”

. if u understand tamil….kindly go thru the wiki link and make an honest effort to understand the meaning of pandiyar’s before editing our pages http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D#.E0.AE.AA.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.A3.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.9F.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.AF_.E0.AE.A8.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.9F.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.9F.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.B2.E0.AF.8D_.E0.AE.AA.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.B1_.E0.AE.A8.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.9F.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.9F.E0.AE.B5.E0.AE.B0.E0.AF.8D_.E0.AE.86.E0.AE.9F.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.9A.E0.AE.BF விஜய நகரப் பேரரசாட்சி கி.பி. 1310 முதல் 1748 ஆம் ஆண்டு வரை தமிழகத்தினை விஜய நகரப் பேரரசு ஆண்டது.நாயக்க மன்னர்கள் அரசியல் அதிகாரிகளாக ஆட்சி புரிந்துள்ளனர்..சேர,சோழ,பாண்டிய போன்ற பேரரசுகள் விஜய நகரப் பேரரசு காலத்தில் வீழ்ச்சியுற்றிருந்தன. பல பாண்டிய மன்னர்கள் குறுநில மன்னர்களாக இருந்து விஜய நகரப் பேரரசிடம் திறை செலுத்தியும் உள்ளது குறிப்பிடத்தக்கது. நாயக்க மன்னர்களின் ஆட்சியின் கீழ் இருந்த பாண்டிய மன்னர்கள். பரக்கிரம பாண்டியன் எனற பெயரில் நாயக்கர் காலத்தில் மூன்று மன்னர்கள் இருந்தனர் என்பது குறிப்பிடத்தக்கது. • கி.பி. 1387 ஆம் ஆண்டளவில் பராக்கிரம பாண்டியன் திருக்குற்றாலத்தில் திருப்பணி புரிந்தான். • கி.பி. 1384-1415 வரை பாண்டிய நாட்டில் ஆட்சி புரிந்தான் பராக்கிரம பாண்டியன் என்ற பெயருடைய ஒன்னொருவன். • கி.பி. 1401-1434 வரை பராக்கிரம பாண்டியன் ஒருவன் பாண்டிய நாட்டில் ஆட்சி செய்தான். • சடையவர்மன் குலசேகர பாண்டியன் என்ற பெயர்கொண்ட ஒருவன் கி.பி. 1396 ஆம் ஆண்டில் பட்டம் பெற்றான் என கரிவலம் வந்த நல்லூர் கல்வெட்டு குறிப்பிடுவது குறிப்பிடத்தக்கது.

Check out the link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandiya just ve patience to read the whole wiki article written in English..

to quote the lines

After Madurai fell into the hands of the invading armies of the Delhi Sultanate, the Pandyas sought the help of Vijayanagar Empire. The Vijayanagar Empire replaced the Delhi Sultanate in Madurai and appointed Nayaks governors to rule from Madurai.

if u think the above article is biased ……… just go and edit the above link because they failed to publish veerapandiya kattabooman and thirumalai nayakar in that article “pandiyars.” … and start a discussion in that page (Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)) SNVURDAK SERVAI 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh,no. I am scared

Bluff. Do watever bull-shit u want to. But DONT EVEN think of intimidating me. This is a discussion page. So keep ur fuckin threats to urself. I know wat i am talkin abt. N so do u. I don't really care if the nayaks were the rulers of the pandiya nadu o not. I am jus trying to say that it is baseless to consider all the pandian&chola kings as thevars. There is no proof to support this theory. The Ramnad n thondaiman kings were thevars. Thondaiman is a sub-caste of the kallars.This is true. I agree. Go thru this link and read it carefully. [2]. Thirumalai nayakar 10:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

---

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

...Dont...Dont...

Friends! Please dont use abusive language. Its a discussion forum. we have to take part in the discussions in a healthy way. Mr.Thirumalai better you quit this forum.--Alagesandas 04:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ha Ha Ha

(Some personal attack comments removed  Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

Delete this article this article is absolutely a fansite

Improve the Quality

The quality of this article needs to be improved. While the article is highly informative, the style of writing isnt impressive. This, along with bad choice of vocabulary and wrong naming of sections actually decreases the quality of the article. If at all someone would help with pieces of information, we will clean up the mess. - Ravichandar84 16:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

This article lacks adequate references and in-text citations. Each and every piece of info needs to be referenced. Kindly provide website or book links-Ravichandar 05:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I dont think 'List of MLAs' satisfies notability. List of Cabinet Ministers is okay as also List of MPs to some extent.. but MLAs???? This is an issue which afflicts articles related to every ethnic group in India-Ravichandar 05:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Kshatriyas/Brahmins castes are usually associated with Aryans. Every backward caste in tamil nadu are claiming kshatriya status. Even the Kallars (thieves)! I have never seen any historic texts relating them with Kshatriyas. To be a Kshatriya, the ethnic group should have some indigenous Kshatriya origin (Suryavanshi, Chandravanshi, Agnivanshi or Nagavanshi) and also must have a martial / aristocratic / ruling history in which Brahmins did the coronation function. I have never heard of a brahmin coronation ceremony giving a thevar Kshatriya status, let alone descend from Kshatriyas. See [3]

The references are poor, citing only 2 reliable books. The rest are websites. This article needs a redo. It is obvious that this page has been written to improve the perception of the Kallars in Malaysia for political reasons. The Thevars in Malaysia in general are very backward, but their majority in population gives them an edge in elections, thus allowing an uneducated politician such as Samy Velu (Kallar) to become their leader. And also, how are the Kallars and Maravars related, other than the fact they are all Dravidians? I have never seen warriors and thieves in the same group. Only someone like Samy Velu can make people write this.--115.132.253.84 (talk) 16:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

post from user:115.132.253.84 is completely inappropriate. The person has refered a link on Kshatriyas wihtout any understanding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.0.105.193 (talk) 09:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The link I gave shows a list of the indigenous Kshatriya clans (Suryavanshi, Chandravanshi, Agnivanshi or Nagavanshi) and their descendants. The Mukkulathors must claim one of these Aryan lineages (which is impossible), prove their martial/ruling history, and finally provide proof of a brahmin coronation function before they can call themselves Kshatriyas.

Ancient kshatriyas have spilled blood for countless of generations. They have provided lavish gold offerings for the brahmins for coronation ceremonies just to gain Kshatriyahood and the sacred thread. How can the Mukkulathors so easily call themselves Kshatriyas? Please provide proper argument instead of just calling me inappropriate, because claiming kshatriyahood is the one which is inappropriate and an insult to the real Kshatriyas.--115.134.83.48 (talk) 16:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Reference to tamil royal lineage is pure POV... These people only served as (simple) soldiers of these dynasties and the tamil Landlords; see this link: http://books.google.co.in/books?id=4bfmnmsBfQ4C&pg=PA1991#v=onepage&q=&f=false . 90.46.110.6 (talk) 16:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Initially they were soldiers of the Tamil kings/Landlords and later (after the collapse of the ancient tamil order) some of them found their (little) kingdoms; see this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=cegr6zH9PFEC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=velir+vellalar&source=bl&ots=rZ3rBNam2Z&sig=ZSmqVfT-eG05D2hZA7HEVyd2awg&hl=en&ei=J-EBS5CnN8ehjAfQqfWLCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=velir%20vellalar&f=false. 90.46.123.62 (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

There is quite a lot in the article that is unencyclopaedic and confusing. I think it needs a simpler structure and more in-line references to be more accessible to people who have no knowledge of the subject. Making it clearer would also avoid misunderstandings and arguments. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I have tagged for cleanup and expert help. I don't know enough about this subject to be able to clean it up but I know it needs help from a genuine expert. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Kshatriya

As you said Kshatriyas/Brahmins castes are usually associated with Aryans, we agree but in tamil Maravar means Kshatriya in sanscrit and Warrior in english here in wikipedia we have to write in a term that everyone could understand, that’s why the term Kshatriya is used. Kallar, Maravar and Agamudaiyar's are warriors, for reference please read Book written by our Honorable Chief minister of Tamilnadu Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar.

Even many of our surnames states that we are Warriors for ex: Kallathil vendrar, Ellam Kondar,Koottai meetar, Gangai Kondar etc.

Is it possible for Thiefes to rule the country? Still now most of the temples in Tanjure, Trichy, Madurai, Theni, Pudukkottai, Karikkudi, Sivagangai are under the control of Kallars,

Samayapuram is one of the richest temple in tamilnadu, Still the Pattayakkarar’s are Kallar with a surname Nattar.

Most of their Temples in Tanjavur and Trichy belongs to Kallars only even will be prayed by only 2 to 3 families, of same surname.

It is Known to everyone in tamilnadu Kallar, Maravar and Agamudaiyar's are siblings Called as Mukkulathor and Thevar, anyway for your reference we mukkulathor as a group want you to read Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar, Kallar sarithiram by Nattar,

Kshatriya is a sanskrit word. The meaning of the word is not as simple as "warrior". If you can prove Thevars are "warriors", then go ahead and write "warrior" in the page.

Kshatriya castes are/were vegetarians, and wore a sacred thread. It is a Hindhu caste. The Thevars were never vegetarians, and never wore the sacred thread. And never in the history of Tamil Nadu have I ever read/seen a Brahmin perform the corronation ceremony for the Thevars. It is disgracefull to the real Kshatriya castes who have remained vegetarian and in the past given large amounts of gold to the Brahmans for their coronation ceremonies.

Thevars were never Kshatriya. Please provide multiple valid references if you want to claim this status.--Jack.Able (talk) 05:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

In sanskrit Kshathriya means Warriors Thevars are Warriors and they are martial race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.133.248 (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the big banner but I wanted to get everybody's attention. I want to give a little advice on how to use this page constructively:

• Do make suggestions about how to improve the article. This includes pointing out any errors it may have.
• Do suggest reliable references that can be used to demonstrate the correctness of your suggestions.
• Do explain the thinking behind your suggestions.
• Don't make bold assertions with nothing to back them up. All this does is confuse people and start arguments.
• Don't make broad generalisations about ethnic or cultural groups. This is often offensive.
• Don't get into arguments about whether Mukkulathors are more pious, "superior", older or generally better or worse than others.

We are interested in the history and culture of the Mukkulathors here. We don't need to place them in a hierarchy with other groups. We should take care not to either praise or disparage them in the article but use a neutral tone and stick to the facts. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Article is good

I don't understand the improvisation for this article,anyways all the examples were correct with details. --Be2bi (talk) 07:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Who said that there is no joke in Wikipedia articles? All those references given here are fictions written by people who never directly and clearly said that any particular caste in vogue is the rulers of Tamilnadu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.112.138 (talk) 04:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Varna system

Do anyone believe in Hindu varna system??? If u do believe please give valid reason.--Be2bi (talk) 09:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

This has no relevance to Wikipedia. If you want to have a general discussion please take it somewhere else. We are here to document beliefs and systems not to argue about whether they are correct or not. Doing so would not help the article. --DanielRigal (talk) 09:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Context

In the first paragraph, I can't tell where or when these people live(d). Vikings suggests that they aren't in business anymore, but it's all written in present tense. The location feels east-asian, but that's about all a poor ignorant reader like myself can glean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.123.137 (talk) 04:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Semi Protection and Protecting the History

There appear to be continous effort to make Mukkulathor community details look bad . As a frequent editor of Wikipedia i am proposing for semi protection . Please understand the history of Mukkulathors ( Its a Super set of small sects within ) and the only Group in India which has tried to bring different sects under 1 umbrella . We will continue to add more references and any attempts to add banners wihout reason is condemnable Rajkumarth (talk) 5:00,24 February 2011(UTC)

See WP:RFPP. -Atmoz (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

There more than 2000 surnames used by kallars. it is pure vandalism to say only 300 surnames used. if you have a doubt , i will provide you people surnames used in marriage invitation. Government law to not use surnames seems to be benefited peoples like you. If dont want to mention those 2000 surnames , please remove thanjai kallars from this list. we will make separate page for thanjai kallars. even genetically we are not from mukkulathor. Genetically Our related castes are Vanniyar, pallar ,Iyengar, lygayat, not thekkaththi kallar, maravar77.64.8.194 (talk) 08:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Remove the cleanup banner

Remove the cleanup banner in the article or else it will be reported to the admin.--Be2bi (talk) 09:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The banners are valid. They will stay until the article is improved. If you want to confirm that this is correct then feel free to ask an admin.

The banners are not meant as an insult to the article as it stands. They just to point out that could be a lot better than it is. Much of the second half of the article is poorly referenced. The language is not very clear (which is understandable given that a lot of people editing the article do not have English as their main language but it would still be good to clear it up) and overall the article is rather confusing. An expert would certainly be able to help. I could hack the structure a bit to make it seem more coherent but with limited understanding of the subject I might blunder badly. That is why I ask for an expert.

Remember, even the best articles can be improved. --DanielRigal (talk) 09:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

References to Tamil royal lineage & aristocracy are pure POV!... The refs are not at all good, accurate: these books do not deal with history and their authors are not historians; for ex, see this ref:[4], this book deals with female infanticide and the author tells clearly this: "People believed that these three clans descended from three ancient major clans namely Cholas, Pandians and Cheras", "From the very early days that is from the Sangam period, the terms Kallan and Maravan were used but only from the sixteenth century these communities were identified". In the same book, the authors tells that female infaticide is high among Kallars who are also known for their criminal activities!... Since when people from the ancient aristocracy kill their children and are involved in criminal activities ?!?!... The others refs are also false: they mix words like Theva/Thevar/Deva/Devar (which mean God/Lord...) with the caste name Thevar to claim that Pandyans belonged to that caste!... This is nonsense, manipulation, cheating!... Wikipedia is not a place for original research and self glorification. Only a minority managed to become landlords, little rajas, the majority remained backward, that is why some of them migrated outside India and in Bombay (where they used to leave in shanty towns) for better conditions. All the castes which are considered (by proper historians, scholars) as having aristocratic origins are ranked as Forward Castes by the Indian government and do not have record of female infanticide. This is not the case of Thevar.90.46.135.17 (talk) 10:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Take it easy! You might have some valid points here but it is important not to get carried away and accuse people of things like cheating or to believe everything bad that is written about the Mukkulathors. I would be very suspicious of any source that ascribes criminality to a whole group of people as that is nearly always an unjustified accusation. Besides, aristocratic descent is not a guarantee of virtue (I can name a few English kings as examples of bad aristocracy) so the two issues are not even linked. --DanielRigal (talk) 10:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes sure you're right but when you assert serious things such as links with Royal dynasties, Aristocratic origins, you must be able to provide multiple valid refs, written by proper, independant historians, scholars; this is not at all the case here. On the contrary, there are refs in this talk page which tells about the history of this caste but are not mentionned in the article. Here is a summary of their history according to scholars: these groups were initially non Tamil people, then they served as soldiers of the Tamil Kings and Nobles; through good military services, some of them got the right to own lands and became members of the Tamil aristocracy. After the fall of the ancient Tamil order (end of the Chera, Chola, Pandya era), some of them managed to found their own area of domination and little kingdoms. That is their history according to proper scholars.90.46.135.17 (talk) 11:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh Mr. Genious! Can u tell who are those proper historians? Haha May be your caste man..Any way i can prove only Mukkulathor are proper tamil and ancient people..If you want i an provide you BBC programme..All other tamil castes are immigrant(vantheri)..Dont just cheat others..LOL77.110.82.173 (talk) 11:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Information about Paalai thinai

People of Dry land only created vast empires in the world. Afkan, Magol, Marathi. Rajastani, And Mukkulathor..So there is no need to gofor Tamil stupidity...Tamil is not authentic language, it is never been considered by any reputed historians..And There was no paalai region,and people were not maravar.. caste name just not changed for last 2000 years? Even low caste pallans try to claim some other name which are not recognized by Tamil society..So it is Stupidity to Claim People of Palai region as per Sankam or seruppu literature..It is mostly written now.If various historian at various time accepted tamil literature as historical evidence, you can use it..Maravar also been used by King..Why not use that..And Where is Kallar been Mentioned..I think this Wikipedia edited by everybody..Please delete Mukkulathor and Kallar from Wikipedia..We can Discuss in our web and we can make wikipedia thever page ourselves and we will know who editing this...77.110.82.173 (talk) 11:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

If you want to say that maravar of Paalai land who are mentioned in Sangam literature are not maravar of present day. But you should not go on to say "Tamil is not authentic langusge" and "Sangam as serupu". Also attacking some other caste. If you want to praise your caste you have all right to do it. In the first line you are saying dry land people only created vast empire in the world, but in the third line you are saying maravar are not from paalai region. First of all what are you coming to say. You have mentioned some names like afghan as dry land But it think you dont know that Afghan has got Kabul river and its culture grew in the banks of that river. Yes there are some exceptions like mongols(mughal) are dry land empire. But i can give you river valley empire all over the world.In Europe Greek,Rome etc,In Africa the famous Egypt, In Asia Persia, Mesopotamia, China, Mohenjadaro and Harappa, Chera, Chola, Pandian, Pallava, Srivijaya, Cambodia, Kalinga, Bengal, Vijayanagaram etc. In North america Mayan,Aztec etc.In South america Inca etc. Also you are saying that Kings are mentioned as maravar. Who are these kings other than Ramnad and other Palaiyakarars. No chera, chola and Pandian Kings are mentioned as Maravar or anyother Mukkulathor caste. There was two Maravars used in Sangam literature one Maravar of Paalai land and Maravar(never backing warrior in the battle field is mentioned as Maravar) of fight. Only the maravar of Paalai land is mentioned as a people group(caste) not the Maravar of fight which is a common name. If you want to prove that the 'Maravar of fight' are from a particular caste or it mentions a particular caste name you have all right to prove it. But dont go on to attack other caste and Tamil language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.72.71 (talk) 04:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Suggest major reorganisation of the article

The article currently spends most of the page describing the three separate components of the Mukkulathor, rather than the concept behind the confederation itself. Given that we have extensive WP article for all three, I suggest that it should be enough to simply list them out in the beginning of the lede, and then only provide such details in the body of the article as explain why/how the Kallar (for example) joined their confederacy, and their specific role therein. Right now there many details (the Kallars like boomerangs?) that do nothing to explain how the Mukkulathor organisation worked.

I also have concerns about the "Resistance to the British" section; it's unclear if these are folks who resisted the British as Mukkulathors or people who happen to be from groups that happen to fall under the Mukkulathor umbrella, who resisted the British. If the former, the role of the confederacy specifically should be highlighted; if the latter, the specifics should be put under the community to which each belonged, with maybe a summarised mention of how discrete portions of the Mukkulathor opposed the British. Thoughts? MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

The term "Mukkulathor" in Tamil means "the three clans" (Kallar, Maravar and Agamudayar). The word is of recent origin and was probably coined by Indian nationalist leader U. Muthuramalingam Thevar who united the three clans in the early 20th century. However, anthropologists have (Edgar Thurston being the most important of them), since time immemorial, recognised that the 3 clans are closely related to one another. The three communities have plenty of similarities; in fact the words "Kallar", "Maravar" and "Agamudayar" should not be considered as groupings based on lineage but rather, desginations. There exist numerous references in Tamil literature which indicate that the groupings were flexible and a Kallar could easily become a Maravar or an Agamudayar. There is a popular saying in Tamil: "Kallar, Maravar, Agamudaiyar mella mella vanthu Vellalar ahi, Mudaliar sonnar" meaning that a Kallar adopting Brahminical practises gradually becomes a Maravar, then an Agamudayar and eventually, a Vellalar and would use the surname "Mudaliar".-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 03:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

As for the "Resistance to the British", contemporary British sources only mention that the Kallas and Maravas resisted them (Agamudayars are not mentioned). Though these communities are closely related, they did not have a joint social organisation till the beginning of the 20th century as I've already mentioned above.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 03:56, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I just removed There is also a small community in Chattisgarh where they migrated to during British rule. Couldn't find any RS on this, mostly Wiki mirrors. I realise Chattisgarh is a new province, but I paired "Mukkulathor" with Chattisgarh, its alternate spelling, Madhya itself, and the five current divisions of Chattisgarh (Raipur, etc) and just not finding any verification. Does someone have verification of this in an onffline book? MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I had added the sentence based on the listing in the glossary of the "Tribes and Castes of Central Provinces of India Volume-I" by R. V. Russell published by Macmillan & Co in 1916. The Agamudayars mentioned here are one of the three Mukkulathor communities.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 02:57, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Further removals: none of the "See also"s had any clear link to the Mukkulathor. I'm not seeing any RS citing them as Kshatriya, nor Martial Race, nor of the Thondaiman; so any reason to "also see" these articles is quite vague. The Religion section also only covered the Thevar, and I couldn't gBook up any connection between the Mukkulathor (as a unit) and Saiva Siddhanta. Similarly, I did not note any relevancy to the Mukkulathor in the Inscription section, so removed it. Again, I submit all material on the page must be germane to the Mukkulathor as a confederacy, and not just to individual components, the region, etc. If all three of the confederacy share a trait (religion, language, etc) maybe we could discuss whether "A, B, and C share the X language" might be a more accurate phrase than "the Mukkulathor speak X", but at the moment we haven't even that. Hope other folks agree about the lack of relevancy for the deleted. I'm continuing to add cited material, and next need to tackle the whole British section. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:37, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

It is a fairly common thing in caste/gotra/tribe articles to see assignation of uncited superlatives to the group. Of course they may well be true, but should in the usual way be treated with more scepticism than more neutral attributes (such as being involved mainly in agriculture). I would pretty much support not just everything you have suggested, but a fairly tight interpretation of removing un-cited material, since these areas seem to be prone to the same type of NPOV as ethnic disputes, so that even cited statements need to be very clearly attributed. Rich Farmbrough, 16:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC).

I think the proposal makes a lot of sense. There is no point having an article that duplicates others, poorly, and doesn't even cover the subject of the confederacy properly. As it stands, a person would learn far more about the subject from reading this discussion than from reading the article itself. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Good deal, moving forward! The Enforcer, you didn't say so explicitly, but am I right in thinking you support having the specific details about individual groups ("the Kallar use boomerangs") within their specific articles, and use this article to instead cover the overall Mukkulathor group? If I read that right, I'm going to go ahead and "be bold" and remove the sections on the three, since their articles are clearly linked right at the start of the lede. I'm also going to remove the British section, unless folks want to make an argument that we should say "2 out of 3 of the Mukkulathor fought the Brits", without it being OR. TE, the part you mention about mobility between the three is extremely interesting, and would be great for the article; do you have any RSs on hand that we can use as evidence? For the Chattisgarh issue, for the moment I'm going to just add "and one branch, the Agamudiyar, are also found in Chattisgarh " or suchlike just to avoid losing that fact, but again not sure if that's the best way to present it. Going back in now for a major trim, but anyone with a good reason feel free to revert if I overshoot and we can talk it out here. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Distribution

The article lists that the Mukkulathors are most numerous in Pandiya Nadu. But then, they are plenty of Kallars in the Thanjavur, Tiruchirappalli and Pudukkottai districts of the Chola Nadu region.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 03:56, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it says "They are also numerically strong in..." which does not at all mean "mostly found in". The point of that sentence is that a goodly number of Mukkulathors (though not necessarily a majority of them) are in Pandiya Nadu (though not necessarily the majority of the population in that area). So far as the other places they're found: do we have some sort of cite for that? The problem with trying to figure out distribution based on personal experience, without citations, is that everybody wants to dive in saying "Oh, there's also a lot of them in Foo district, I've been there" or "are found in large number in Birmingham UK (where I live)". So I don't thinkthe Pandiya bit is misleading, but if you can find a cite about where the majority do live that'd be great too, or even just a general cite saying what parts of the country they traditionally live in. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Nope, I am not saying that the Mukkulathors are not strong in Pandiya Nadu. Nor am I making any new claim of my own. The article, itself, says that the Mukkulathors are strong in Tiruchirappalli and Pudukkottai districts. All I am saying is that these two districts are in the Chola Nadu region and not Pandiya Nadu.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, the reason I had them there is because this page[5] lists them as being part of the historical Pandiya region. Are you quite sure that those districts were never part of Pandiya Nadu? Do you believe the book is incorrect on this detail? MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

How about this and this?-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You can also add Thanjavur district to the list. This source claims that according to the 1931 census, Kallars and Agamudayars jointly made up 14.4% of the total population of Thanjavur district.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 17:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Thevar?

I was looking at holidays for October 30, and came here because of a link there referring to a holiday celebrated by the "Thevar community". Thevar automaticalled redirects here, but there is nothing to explain the meaning of that term. I know no Tamil (not even the alphabet), hence cannot turn to that Wikipedia for further information. Something here about the term "Thevar" would, thus, be useful; either that or a separate article on the Thevar Community, whatever that is. --Haruo (talk) 02:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

kallar means thieves. The article needs correction

Kallar means thief. Also they were considered criminal tribes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aqKSTs4ajsAC&pg=PA193&dq=Thevar+criminal+tribes+of+india+cambridge&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gUobT-nRKqr9iQL5y5jgCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=criminal&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=LvYcAQAAMAAJ&q=kallar+thief&dq=kallar+thief&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGEbT_-qFuGuiQKt9_WXCA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAw

http://books.google.com/books?id=03qFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA581&dq=kallar+thieves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D2IbT_aaLKOpiAKduKStCA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thieves&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=s4MUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=kallar+thieves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aGIbT-juHoSZiQLIiZWbCA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thieves&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 01:12, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

[Untitled]

This is only section that have deleted edited too many a times ....I guess this "Thevar" is not well received by alot of people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.73.237.50 (talk) 20:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of thevar seems to be caste pushing

Meaning of thevar seems to be caste pushing. Please provide more links for meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desty cn (talk • contribs) 03:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Infanticide

The practise of female infanticide is stated in the source provided, between pages 11-13. Please do not remove the statement again unless you can demonstrate that the source is not reliable. - Sitush (talk) 22:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Population

Population of mukkulathor/Thevar is 1.4 crores by Times of India news agency. Check this

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Rice-scheme-has-hit-their-income/articleshow/7938033.cms VikiAT (talk) 08:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2016

72.92.79.59 (talk) 22:50, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Datbubblegumdoe^{[talk – contribs]} 01:28, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2016

Copypaste of entire article removed
182.65.70.55 (talk) 17:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

 Not done As it clearly states in the instructions to submit an edit request:-
"Please don't copy the entire article into the request. Only copy the part you're changing. If you copy the entire article into the request, you'll break navigation on the talk page, and another editor may remove your entire request."
This is not a "spot the difference competition" If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2016

Please change the page back to original, the earlier reliable contents have been removed and false information has been added.

120.61.38.149 (talk) 04:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Sorry, but you need to be more specific. Which revision of the page? What false information? Please explain your reasoning. st170e^talk 12:58, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Please add the following content in Notable Person

Please add the following content in Notable Person

Rani Velu Nachiyar was an 18th-century Indian queen from Sivaganga. She was the first queen to fight against the British in India. [6][11]

The Marudhu Pandiyar brothers (Periya Marudhu Chinna Marudhu) ruled Sivagangai, Tamil Nadu towards the end of the 18th century. The Marudhu brothers were the first to issue a proclamation of independence from the colonial British rule from Trichy Thiruvarangam Temple, Tamil Nadu on 10 June 1801, more than 56 years before what is generally said to be the First War of Indian Independence which broke out mainly in Northern India in the year. [10]

Pandithurai Thevar, The founder of the fourth Tamil Sangam was formed on the 14th of September, 1901. [7][8][9]

Bhaskara Sethupathy (1873 to1895) was a Raja of Ramnad and regarded as a pious, brilliant and generous ruler by his supporters. In 1892, Swami Vivekananda stayed with Bhaskara when he visited Madurai and he sponsored Vivekananda's visit to Parliament of the World's Religions held in Chicago.[5] During his stay, Swami Vivekananda had extensive discussions on Hindu philosophy with eminent scholars like Mahavidwan R. Raghava Iyengar. [5]

Pasumpon Muthuramalinga Thevar, Freedom Fighter, Social Reformer, Political Leader, Parliamentarian, known for his relationship with Nethaji, leader of the All India Forward Bloc (AIFB) in Tamil Nadu, and was national deputy chairman of the party from 1952 onwards. He was elected thrice to parliament

Pudukkottai Ulaganathan Pillai Chinnappa (5 May 1916 – 23 September 1951), also popularly known as P. U. Chinnappa, was a popular singer and Tamil movie actor during the 1930s and from Pudukottai, Tamil Nadu, India. He is also credited to be one of the first major influential actors of South Cinema.[13]

"Sandow" Marudur Marudachalamurthy Ayyavoo Chinnappa Devar (Tamil:மருதூர் மருதாச்சலமூர்த்தி அய்யாவு சின்னப்ப தேவர்) (28 June 1915 - 8 September 1978) was an eminent producer of Tamil films in the mid 1950s through the 1960s and 1970s. He is best known for his films featuring animals, and has produced numerous movies with M. G. Ramachandran as lead actor (16 movies with under his famous banner: Devar Films). He launched all his movies under the Devar Films banner, which also produced the Rajesh Khanna's Bollywood hit Haathi Mere Saathi (1971) in which he achieved national fame.[12]

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaskara_Sethupathi

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velu_Nachiyar

[7] http://maduraitamilsangam.com/founder.html

[8] http://gksadagoban.blogspot.com/2008/01/founder-of-fourth-tamilsangam.html

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palavanatham

[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruthu_Pandiyar

[11] http://www.tamilhindu.com/2010/07/great-women-warriors-of-sivagangai/

[12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandow_M._M._A._Chinnappa_Thevar

[13] http://thevarhistory.webs.com/vip.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 16:37, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Why Notable Person section was removed. Please let me know the reason. why partiality shown to this page. Wikipedia under this link describe about Puli Thevan with required reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puli_Thevar

Refernce https://www.flipkart.com/books/pr?sid=bks&q=political+general+history+district+tinnevelly&query=political+general+history+district+tinnevelly

if all my request cannot be done. Please remove the entire page. No need to keep such false information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:1D30:A812:4799:AF4E:68F6 (talk) 02:26, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Meaning of Kallar

See in Tamil for most of the words there are several meanings if u are a tamilian you may definitely know it, here we peoples are not writing our own theory this meaning of Kallar (Brave peoples) was agreed by Venkataswamy nattar, and our Honorable Chief minister Karunanidhi

Please read கள்ளர் சரித்திரம் - நாவலர் பண்டித ந மு வேங்கடசாமி நாட்டார் and Thenpandi Singam by M. Karunanidhi.

There are lot of books were wriiten by other caste peoples about Kallar which clearly state their Bravery.

Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar. Maviran Pandara Vanniyan By Kalaingar. Pudhukkottai varalaru by Asif Alli. Palhuvetaraiyar by Palanimanicham

I also want to state some proof from Tamil literature for the meaning of Kallar.

Kallarin Kilavi Kariyon enba-Purananuru

Kallar Kooman Pulli – Purananuru

Kalvar Kalvan Perumbidugu Muthirayan – South Indian Inscriptions.

Kallaral puliyai veru Kaniya – Purananuru.

Where, Thirumal where Mal Means Black and Krishna means Black Please see tamil nadu official website for Krishnagiri.

List of Historians postulate Kallars are Chola and Pallava.

Dr.Barnal (டாக்டர் பர்னலும்) Srinivasa Iyengar (ம. சீனிவாசையங்கார்) Vengaswamy Rao (வெங்காசாமி ராவ்) வின்சன் ஏ. ஸ்மித் என்னும் சரித்திர அறிஞர் 'புராதன இந்திய சரித்திரம் என்னும் தமது நூலில் பல்லவர் வரலாறு கூறுமிடத்தே கள்ளர் வகுப்பினரையும் இயைந்து கூறுகின்றனர்.

PLease dont delete or damage articles which will spoil our valuable time.

if you want any more reference for any of the statements mentioned u r welcome to ask in Talk Page.

Thank You,

Rajnwiki (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Based on Castes and tribes of South India by Edgar Thurston, Volume 3, page 64 :

In the Census Report, 1901, Mr. Francis records that " the Kalians, Maravans, and Agamudaiyans are responsible for a share of the crime of the southern districts, which is out of all proportion to their strength in them. In 1897, the Inspector-General of Prisons reported that nearly 42 per cent, of the convicts in the Madura jail, and 30 per cent, of those in the Palamcottah jail in Tinnevelly, belonged to one or other of these three castes. --Jack.Able (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of the word Kallar (taken from Castes and tribes of South India by Edgar Thurston, Volume 3, page 53) :

The word Cullar(Kallar/Kallan) is used to express a thief of any caste, sect or country....--Jack.Able (talk) 06:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the answer is in your statement, Jack. It could be a thief from any caste or sect. Implying that all thieves in south india formed a new caste called kallar and that kallar means thief is very wrong in this context. So don't make such rash statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It is really funny to see some people saying Edgar thurtan as a historian..he was a just joker who recorded british imperial wills ans whims..look at his book, he was just recording all heresay as per his boss (british) instruction. His book even much below the school book. He never knew Tamil, He never lived in Tamil society, then how could he made a book? There are lot books written in Tamil available now, proving all british era books are plain shit. Look how he deals with tanjore kallar, he say they have royal surnames, and skips that subject(tanjore Kallar) thereafter..Even there was only tamil king ruling tamilnadu during that time was kallar king thondaiman..and he says "Kallar means thief of any caste" LOL..was he historian ? non sense..did he know tamil? Noththing..what a funny ..Chritian Missionary conspiracy still going on in name of Wikipedia..176.45.111.163 (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2016

Please change Most Backward Class (MBC) to Backward Class (BC) because as per you reference in "Tamil Nadu Public Services Commission: List of Communities" see BC Communities List serial no 1. Agamudayar , Serial No 58. Kallar serial no 100. Maravar. Hope this changes would be done ASAP. Since you have given false information.

May I know on what basis you given MBC. Can you please provide evidence why you mentioned MBC.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 03:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC) 

Thanjaipvr (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

For your reference. This is the link which is already in this page as [2] "Tamil Nadu Public Services Commission: List of Communities". http://www.tnpsc.gov.in/communities-list.html#bc

Already I mentioned What serial no in the above link under BC.

I dont know what more you are expecting.

Thanjaipvr 03:36, 10 August 2016‎ (UTC)

 Done: All three peoples in this group are in the source's BC list. Some exceptions are noted; however, the list doesn't not expand to whether or not they are exceptionally more or less backward. Since none are in the MBC list, the logical conclusion is that to mention them as MBC probably means that their status has improved a bit over the years. In any case, it is clear to me that the source categorizes them as "backward class" rather than as "most backward class".  Rules of engagement Paine  23:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2016

Please remove They are known to practise female infanticide because as per your reference between page 11-15, it is geographic specific where less economic activity like farming, etc lead to less income.

The Mukkulathor comprise the Agamudayar, Kallar and Maravar. When you say Mukkulathor practise female infanticide,

1. You are generalize female infanticide to Agamudayar, Kallar and Maravar but it is not true. In addition, Kallar in other region like Thanjavur, Tiruchirapalli, Pudukottai is not practicing this. so it is not even Kallar common practice.

2. This was practiced in Usilampatti but not now. either remove or mention specific region and specif caste in the past. Do not generalize.

Thanjaipvr (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I clearly mentioned based on your reference, it only talks about geography and particular sub sect(Piramalai Kallar) not entire community. One of earlier talk, your reviewer mentioned page 11-15 on the following link. Hope you understand our feelings. [1]

Muthulakshmi, R. (1997). Female Infanticide, Its Causes and Solutions. Discovery Publishing. pp. 11–13. ISBN 978-8-17141-383-6.

https://books.google.com/books?id=N1Q_TdiGzVIC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanjaipvr 03:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add the following content in Notable Person

Bhaskara Sethupathy (1873 to1895) was a Raja of Ramnad and regarded as a pious, brilliant and generous ruler by his supporters. In 1892, Swami Vivekananda stayed with Bhaskara when he visited Madurai and he sponsored Vivekananda's visit to Parliament of the World's Religions held in Chicago.[5] During his stay, Swami Vivekananda had extensive discussions on Hindu philosophy with eminent scholars like Mahavidwan R. Raghava Iyengar. [5]

Rani Velu Nachiyar was an 18th-century Indian queen from Sivaganga. She was the first queen to fight against the British in India. [6][11]

The Marudhu Pandiyar brothers (Periya Marudhu Chinna Marudhu) ruled Sivagangai, Tamil Nadu towards the end of the 18th century. The Marudhu brothers were the first to issue a proclamation of independence from the colonial British rule from Trichy Thiruvarangam Temple, Tamil Nadu on 10 June 1801, more than 56 years before what is generally said to be the First War of Indian Independence which broke out mainly in Northern India in the year. [10]

Pandithurai Thevar, The founder of the fourth Tamil Sangam was formed on the 14th of September, 1901. [7][8][9]

Pasumpon Muthuramalinga Thevar, Freedom Fighter, Social Reformer, Political Leader, Parliamentarian, known for his relationship with Nethaji, leader of the All India Forward Bloc (AIFB) in Tamil Nadu, and was national deputy chairman of the party from 1952 onwards. He was elected thrice to parliament

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaskara_Sethupathi

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velu_Nachiyar

[7] http://maduraitamilsangam.com/founder.html

[8] http://gksadagoban.blogspot.com/2008/01/founder-of-fourth-tamilsangam.html

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palavanatham

[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruthu_Pandiyar

[11] http://www.tamilhindu.com/2010/07/great-women-warriors-of-sivagangai/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 01:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: Firstly, I understand if things have changed for the better over the last almost twenty years since the source was published (1997). It is likely in my opinion that the processes of education have had a positive effect on the rates of female infanticide in the regions described in this article. Without a more updated reliable source, the information you would like changed can only be changed by what Wikipedia calls "original research". So the requirement is a modern reliable source that confirms your information, and I hope you find one or more good ones. Secondly, it appears that there may have been a good deal of controversy and contention in regard to a notable persons section. That then would be what caused its removal from the article. As it would have taken a consensus to remove the section, it would take a new consensus to reinstate it. And please obtain a consensus before further usage of the edit semi-protected template. Thank you, and I sincerely hope that you find updated sources for the first issue, and that you are able to obtain a consensus in regard to the second issue!  Rules of engagement Paine  23:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2016

Please change Most Backward Class (MBC) to Backward Class (BC)

Because as per you reference in

see BC Communities List

Serial no 1. Agamudayar

Serial No 58. Kallar

Serial no 100. Maravar.

Hope this changes would be done ASAP. Since you have given false information and it is very sensitive info. May I know on what basis you given MBC since your existing reference is wrong.

References

Thanjaipvr (talk) 12:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: It appears to me that the regions in which this group of people lives are listed as exceptions in the BC list in the source provided. However, I am far from an expert in this area, so I will leave this open in hopes that a more knowledgeable editor might be able to help. Topher385 (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done: All three peoples in this group are in the source's BC list. Some exceptions are noted; however, the list doesn't not expand to whether or not they are exceptionally more or less backward. Since none are in the MBC list, the logical conclusion is that to mention them as MBC probably means that their status has improved a bit over the years. In any case, it is clear to me that the source categorizes them as "backward class" rather than as "most backward class".  Rules of engagement Paine  23:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for changes. Tamilnadu/Indian government is not revising category on some period.

All Backward Community is called Other Back Ward class by Indian Government, That is not required, since it can be inferred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 03:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add district in Demographics like Theni, Dindigul, Sivaganga, Tiruchirapalli, Thriuvarur, Nagapattinam. since over the period, Thanjavur was divided into Thriuvarur and Nagapattinam and Madurai was divided into Theni and Sivaganga. Tiruchirapalli and Dindigul was missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 11:51, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Please remove Politics section. It has no relevance and creates conflicts between 2 community. This kind of conflict happened between Dalit and other community across Tamilnadu and India.

Caste system diluted when Agriculture Economy overtaken by Industrial and information economy across the India and World.

Don't be smart and once sided. if you are not from Tamilnadu and does not know reality, so please don't write blindly based on the Book reference.

Similarly Thevar community also improved their economy through education and entrepreneurship and work as professionals across the world. I did not see any such point and always trying to mention they economically not progressed as if you have statistic. Even India government has no statistics. Please be aware, Tamilnadu is one of the Industrialized state in India. This growth can be seen across all section of people.

Please remove "the sociologist Hugo Gorringe noted in 2005 that "their educational and economic achievements have been negligible", with many being small farmers or agricultural labourers.[6]"

This reference cannot be considered as valid unless government of India or Tamilnadu Government published recently.

Please remove They have been recorded as practicing female infanticide as recently as the 1990s.[1][4][a]

I am repeatedly raising this point that it is a practice of particular sub sect(Piramalai Kallar) in and around Usilampatti. Mukulathore comprise Agamudayar, Kallar, Maravar. So don't generalize. It is sensitive information.

Hope you understand and take action on the all the above point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:1D30:B805:6E2F:112A:1B6A (talk) 04:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Past as rulers

The Hollow Crown: Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom By Nicholas B. Dirks, University of Michigan Press.. Please use this book to expand this article. The current article speaks very little about their military past. I dont have complete access to this book. If you have access to this book, please try to expand this article. Thank you.Mayan302 (talk) 10:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Add another notable peoples

P.k.mokkiah thevar , pulithevan Kavin manoharan (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

No source and no article = no mention. - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Sitush are you surely know about this Incase there is an articles in wiki Kavin manoharan (talk) 09:21, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

How dare you tell that Kavin manoharan (talk) 09:22, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Did you mean P.K. Mookiah Thevar? That article doesn't seem to have a source for him being a Mukkulathor. - Sitush (talk) 17:05, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Sitush you first understand about the community

MUKKULATHOR also called as a THEVAR Kavin manoharan (talk) 16:19, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Last name is not verification of caste - see User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. - Sitush (talk) 16:42, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Discuss the mukkulathor history as criminal tribes

Discuss the links

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=QHduAAAAMAAJ&q=thevar+criminal+tribes&dq=thevar+criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjarYGcgtLcAhWIGpAKHVvEAw84ChDoAQgoMAA

https://books.google.com/books?id=joKTCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA197&dq=Mukkulathors++criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwuN_d44TdAhX3HjQIHfy6Cv8Q6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=Mukkulathors%20%20criminal%20tribes&f=false

Mentions the Mukkulathor as criminal tribes and their profession seems to be bandit and thief for some time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sangitha rani111: From what I have seen the content you are adding is inappropriately phrased, being given undue weight by placement in lede and stand-alone section, and extrapolates from the cited sources. But if you are wiling to discuss the issue, we can decide what is worth including and what are the appropriate sources to cite. To begin with, can you quote the relevant bits from the sources you have listed above and your recent edit that support the content you wish to add? Note that the subject of this article is Mukkulathor and not its constituent groups per se. Abecedare (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Abecedare

I am providing three links

https://books.google.com/books?id=x7BPAQAAMAAJ&q=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&dq=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2qc-0qYbdAhV-IDQIHfEQBng4FBDoAQgoMAA Anand Sankar Pandian / University of California, Berkeley, 2004 Page 408 States "Petition to the government of India by the Mukkulathor Sangham .... to repeal the Criminal Tribes Act" - Please read

https://books.google.com/books?id=joKTCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA197&dq=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicsJSNqYbdAhUKGDQIHSDZARsQ6AEITjAH#v=onepage&q=mukkulathor%20%20crime%20tribes&f=false Page 197 From the Margins to the Mainstream: Institutionalising Minorities in South Asia/edited by Hugo Gorringe, Roger Jeffery, Suryakant Waghmore States " Muthuramalingam ... best know for mobilizing thevars ....criminal tries act "

https://books.google.com/books?id=pOqgYpCgCXsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mukkulathor++criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU8aKEp4bdAhXPGTQIHV_8D58Q6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=mukkulathor&f=false Crooked Stalks: Cultivating Virtue in South India / By Anand Pandian Mukkulathor Sangham petitioned .... organizing against the criminal tribes act

I would like to add a section on Criminal tribes with contents explaining the history behind the act

Please do let me know your thoughts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.50.178 (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sangitha rani111: Instead of linking to every circumscribed snippet you find on searching Google books for "mukkulathor criminal tribes", can you start with providing complete contextual quotes from one solid citation that discusses the topic in some detail? Abecedare (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

ok sure, I have provided another link with some solid history on the Assignment of thevars as criminal tribes

https://books.google.com/books?id=4jWQIXtTt3UC&pg=PA113&dq=thevars+criminals&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju4PjL4obdAhUyCTQIHf4WAooQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=thevars%20criminals&f=false By By Diane P. Mines

Page 113

Quotes from Book: In 1911 British colonial administrators in the southern madras presidency designated them as criminal castes. As it turns out it was the British instead of the tamils who exhibited a causal reasoning. Unline the pragmatic tamil theory of action and habit that would predict a relatively mutable character based on an accretion of past action and habits in context, the British essentialized Thevar character as inherently criminal As Rachel Tolen demonstrates, criminal castes such as thevars were thought to be by nature predisposed to manifest what the British conceived as their inward basic criminality.

I think this sounds ok to add with modifications — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 23:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sangitha rani111: Thanks for finding the Mines book. I have expanded the article a bit based on it. Let me know if you'd like to see anything further modified or added. Abecedare (talk) 01:05, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

• For future record, the following paper that Mines' cites, goes into some detail about the factors used by the British in designating communities, such as the Kallars, a "criminal caste" and is worth a read to understand why colonial era gazettes, census, and writings of Edgar Thurston et al (and those who cite these works uncritically) need to be handled with care on this and related articles:

Tolen, Rachel J. (February 1991). "Colonizing and transforming the criminal tribesman: the Salvation Army in British India". American Ethnologist. 18 (1): 106–125. doi:10.1525/ae.1991.18.1.02a00050.

Abecedare (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Abecedare Thanks looks good. I will follow your recommendations. Thanks once again for guiding me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 02:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 March 2019

Many of the unrefernced date here.so remove the unreferenced data in article Jkalaiarasan86 (talk) 15:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2019

I'm requesting the removal of the last paragraph in Politics section: "The Mukkulathor-Dalit antagonism was not one-sided. Dalits, too, committed violent acts." The paragraph doesn't seem to be justified by the citation. Retaliation is being wrongly termed as antagonism here. Srini1999 (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done The sentence objected to failed WP:VERIFY. The cite given did not state what the article claimed it stated. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 March 2020

121.200.48.66 (talk) 11:44, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. To reply, copy and paste this: {{replyto|Can I Log In}}(Talk) 22:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Paraiyar

Which caste is king of tamilnadu? AdKaran (talk) 14:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)