Talk:Murder of Bruno Pereira and Dom Phillips

Article title moves

This article was originally titled Disappearance of Bruno Pereira and Dom Phillips, briefly moved to Murder of Bruno Pereira and Dom Phillips and is now titled Killings of Bruno Pereira and Dom Phillips. The current title now follows Wikipedia's Naming conventions for violence and deaths. Before attempting to move this page again, the naming advice for murder articles indicates that someone needs to be convicted of murdering both of the victims. Additionally, since murder is generally considered a crime against the person, there are two murders described in the article, so to be precise, the plural "Murders of ..." should be used, rather than the singular, "Murder of ..." Lastly, if the article title is moved again, please update all the redirects to avoid double redirects. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

It's definitely prejudicial to call these murders yet. I think it should go back to "killings". You and your links adequately explain why. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe: In Portuguese, the term "assassinato" can be used to refer to a crime or the act of taking a life. Because of this, these guidelines would not be easily adopted on ptwiki. I found some automatic translation errors. Is it possible that the title was copied too? I believe so. Edmond Dantès ^{d'un message?} 02:51, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@Conde Edmond Dantès: I was merely observing the English Wikipedia guidelines for what an article title should be and the agreed rules that should be observed, here. What a Portuguese version of this article is called will depend on the guidelines for the Portuguese wiki. This means the same event may have different titles in different languages and attempting to apply the English guidelines to the Portuguese article, or vice versa, should not be attempted, because the guidelines are likely to be different. While translating the title of an article is a starting point for an article's naming criteria, and use of the word "Disappearance" correctly described the initial reported circumstances, but once the victims turned up dead, in suspicious circumstances, the English word "Killing" is more appropriate, until any alleged killer is convicted of the crime. The threshold that Wikipedia has chosen for "Murder of " articles is a conviction or similar court finding of murder. This is because in English law, a person is presumed innocent until found guilty beyond reasonable doubt by a competent judicial process. This is different from the Police threshold for arresting a person and laying charges, which is on the balance of probabilities. The legal standards and words used in Portuguese law may be different and I accept subtle differences in meanings might be lost in translation, or not fully appreciated by contributors who do not have English as a first language. As InedibleHulk points out, this article should move back to Killings of Bruno Pereira and Dom Phillips because calling it a murder, at present, prejudices the rights of the accused to a fair trial. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Englishwise, I'd argue that the accused are technically prejudiced, their rights themselves more "violated" (among other verbs). But that hardly matters on a practical level, your meaning is clear enough and I'm just dwelling on it as a recency effect and maybe some animalistic defense mechanism against being misunderstood. As far as common law and the applicability of en.wiki rules to this title go, yeah, I'll second that. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree, I just found that the page with translation errors fatally translated the title from the original language. This is a tricky case for someone who doesn't have much contact with English. Often killing can be translated as assassinato or assassínio (murder). If you need to change the title, you have my support. But the adequacy of the wording would be better :D Edmond Dantès ^{d'un message?} 18:22, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"Career Servant?"

What does it mean to call Pereira a “career servant of Funai?” Is this a translation artifact that should more properly be e.g. “Funai employee,” “employed by Funai,” “working for Funai?"

Jdickinson (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)