Talk:Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe

Copyvio template?

@Baffle gab1978: If I recall correctly, after COPYVIO someone adds a template to the discussion page, no? Tetizeraz - (talk page) 09:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

"Aftermath" should be moved to the end of the article

Since one editor linked this article , it makes sense to provide some analysis regarding his death. This article briefly mentions that the killers did not intend to kill Moise due to his race, but this is a claim only they have done. The article itself explains why race and xenophobia still played a part in his murder.

This news article by CNN Brasil shows that some Brazilian Congolese people are moving from this country after they were harassed for speaking out against this act, but also for trying to collaborate with the ongoing investigations. I don't believe there's an article about how many Congolese in Brazil have left our country, but this data can be updated in the future. Tetizeraz - (talk page) 10:56, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

@Knoterification: based on wikipedia pages regarding WP:NPOV, could you elaborate on how sbpsociologia.com.br helps your wording when you write that one of the killers claimed Moise was "the same color as them", therefore it wasn't racially motivated? There's other sources claiming the same thing, and yet you use this particular source that actually claims otherwise. I don't get it.

In this revert edit, I have tried to explain why the link to Whit Brazilians is relevant and not my own interpretation: the fact that the victim claimed to be harassed first by "light skinned people", and then further claimed that another person, a white person, threatened him. Interpreting "light skinned" (gente clara) makes it easier to think it was someone who's pardo when that's likely not the case because of that second paragraph. I should say that I cannot say I believe you're editing in good faith based on this edit, which I had to revert and then add easily found sources about racism in Brazil and how Whites, making up ~50% of the population, dominate Brazilian politics and economy, and are less likely to like in poverty or be murdered (for racial or non-racial motivations).

I ask you to stop editing this article until the dispute can be solved or mediated by another, more experienced Wikipedian. Tetizeraz - (talk page) 00:27, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

My edit was not meant to claim that racism played, or didn't play, a part in his murder. The murderer in question is claiming that he did not kill the man because of racial hate, and points out to the fact that he is black himself. The article should not claim that it is a proof that it was not racism, neither it should claim it was racism (of course it may point to the fact that many organizations considered it racism, however it is interesting to notice that according to this article https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/cotidiano/2022/04/menos-de-10-das-postagens-sobre-moise-mencionavam-racismo-diz-estudo.shtml, less than 10% of social media posts about the muder talked about racism, meaning that the vast majority of Brazilians have probably not absorbed academic notions about racism). The reader is free to make an interpretation out of that facts.

In relation to the journalists' claim about "light skinned" people. I do think it is a curious distinction he made. The fact that he later mentioned a white man who threatened him, does not mean that he claimed all the "light skinned" people were white. It seems he simply was claiming he could see that all of those people were light skinned, but he couldn't really tell if all of them were white or not. I don't know were you live in Brazil, but in Rio there are much less white people in proportion than in São Paulo or the South, that is true specially in Barra (less so in the South Zone), which houses most poor people who socially ascend and whiten.

I totally disagree with your claim about white Brazilians being a dominant minority akin to the Alawites in Syria, Tutsis in Rwanda, Afrikaners in South Africa or descendants of American Slaves in Liberia. Firstly those groups are small minorities of their countries. White Brazilians are roughly 50%. The article claims that "despite representing a small fraction of the overall population", 42% cannot be honestly said to be a "small fraction". Secondly there is no clear separation between the categories of white/pardos and blacks, which are somewhat fluid. Brazil is considered to have a "social" Apartheid for the exact reason that a small elite (which is indeed mostly white), has a huge disproptional power, but the vast majority of white Brazilians are very poor, live among black and pardo people, including in the same families in poor areas, and suffer from most of the same problems they do. One of the articles you used as a source makes that claim: "Most notably, the middle class and the elite are almost entirely white, so that Brazil's well-known melting pot only exists among the working class and the poor". Therefore the dominant minority in Brazil is white, but whites are not a dominant minority in itself.

Also, while the amount of state power held by a social group is relevant to its status as dominant; the facts about a group being more educated, more wealthy or less likeley to be murdered is not. For a long time people where trying to include in the article, Jews, as a dominant minority in the USA; because they are more educated and vastly more wealthy than the average white. The same could apply to Jews, Lebanese and Japanese in Brazil, who are wealthier, more educated and less likeley to be murdered than all other groups (and in the case of the Lebanese overrperesented in political positions). Still none of those groups could be correctly claimed to be dominant minorities

Racial unequality in Brazil is an enormous problem. However I don't think a page about "dominant minorities" is the right place to talk about that. Knoterification (talk) 05:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

1) You link to yet another article that denies your claim that "racism played, or didn't play, a part in his murder". A phenomenon that justifies the difficulty of relating the Moïse case to racism, according to him, would be the negationism of racism. "Denialism is one of the reasons why common sense in social networks feels comfortable reproducing attitudes like this, that there is no connection between violence and the manifestation of racism," he says. You are using another article that briefly mentions the claim of the killer, and not the widespread consensus within Brazilian society and Brazilian media that is was a racially motivated crime that your article from Folha de São Paulo suggests and most sources linked in this article (CNN Brasil, Reuters, AP, etc). If it comes to the decision of the judge to consider it not a racial crime, that can be added to the page in the future. That would be as if I only took claims of policemen who said George Floyd was killed due to a robbery, and there was no significant racial issues at play. The same can be said here. That's also why I suggested an "Aftermath" section, because it would provide an in-depth analysis after the protests.

2) I don't know were you live in Brazil, but in Rio there are much less white people in proportion than in São Paulo or the South, that is true specially in Barra (less so in the South Zone), which houses most poor people who socially ascend and whiten. Hello, WP:V department? white brazilians compared to black + pardos are around 50% each, and around 60% compared to some 36% in São Paulo. Tetizeraz - (talk page) 09:10, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

"racism played or didn't play a part", is not a claim. A claim would be to argue for one of the two positions, I mereley stating that I don't know. I am however, not arguing to include that open possibility in the article, my point was simply that the killers affirmation about his skin colour is a relevant fact to be mentioned.

The widespread consensus you claim does not exist however. It does apparently exist in the media, but not in Brazilian society at large, the article I linked points to that direction, and I think the fact that less than 10% of social media posts about the crime talk about racism is relevant.

Your argument comparing the case to George Floyd murder is curious, because what most shocked society, and was highlighted by the media was the fact that the murderer was white. Therefore the American media points out to racist killings when white men murder black people, both when there is clear racial hate, and when that fact is not that clear (though I do believe it was indeed a fact in George Floyd's murder). In Brazil however, where black and pardo people are a large percentage, therefore a large percentage of the police, any killing of a black or pardo person, even when the killer is itself black or pardo is considered racist by the media.

Moise's murder was highlighted mostly for his refugee status, xenophobia being a very probable reason for his killing. Even a racist ideas about Africans played a liekley part. However murders for "torpe" reasons are generally uneventful in Brazil.

https://g1.globo.com/rio-de-janeiro/noticia/imagens-mostram-sessao-de-agressoes-a-argentino-assassinado-no-rio.ghtml Knoterification (talk) 16:20, 5 July 2022 (UTC)