Talk:Museum of the Republic of North Macedonia

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Name

@Antondimak:, the name of this museum is Museum of Macedonia. Not sure where your confusion is coming from. --Local hero ^talk 14:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, I have added a government source to the article detailing the entities whose name as officially changed after 2019. This museum is mentioned in the list, its name changing from Museum of Macedonia to Museum of the Republic of North Macedonia. The website is outdated. --Antondimak (talk) 15:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

You realize this is exactly like the discussion we had at Macedonian-Radio Television? The government document can say whatever it wants, but the museum still calls itself the Museum of Macedonia. "Outdated"? The website has an update from May 9 2021. The article title will be going back to Museum of Macedonia, but you can add text about this government document if you want. --Local hero ^talk 16:12, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

In this case we only know that the marketing itself uses that name for internal consumption. It can be "Музеј на Македонија" if it decides to violate the law and if it's the name most commonly used in Macedonian, but that is the English name. Inhabitants of Istanbul also called it "the city" in the local language between them, it doesn't mean this is the common name in English. If a common name in English can be shown to exist, then this will be used, as done in the case of the Radio Television, if not the official name will be used. --Antondimak (talk) 17:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

You can't be serious with that example. Yes, many cities have nicknames, what does that have to do with anything. Museum of Macedonia is not a nickname. The common name in English is Museum of Macedonia, it's not even close [1] [2]. Go ahead and try searching yourself. The website of this museum says Museum of Macedonia in plain English. You have no proof that the current title is the "official name". I will refer you again to @Future Perfect at Sunrise:'s comment at Talk:Macedonian_Radio_Television#Name change about this document you love citing. --Local hero ^talk 17:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

This document I love citing is a document of the government instituting an official change of the names of various state-related institutions in the country. In Macedonian it may still be called "Museum of Macedonia", like in Greek the country is commonly called "Skopje". It doesn't mean it's the common name in English. The official name is "Museum of the Republic of North Macedonia", with both names being still used unofficially in some websites. --Antondimak (talk) 20:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

In fairness, the museum's official social media channels on Facebook and Twitter are using the new name, "Музеј на Република Северна Македонија"/"Museum of R. North Macedonia", both in English and Macedonian. On Instagram, the account itself is still named "museum_of_macedonia", but with a subtitle of "Museum of North Macedonia". Do with that what you will. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

So, we've got a website using "Museum of Macedonia" and social media using a bit of both (but no "Republic of" at least). The name "Museum of Macedonia" is more commonly used than the current article title. Thus, I think it's appropriate to move this back to Museum of Macedonia and include "also known as the Museum of North Macedonia" in the lead sentence. --Local hero ^talk 20:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

They use the full name, including "Република"․ A name change has officially taken place, with some websites still unofficially using the old name․ If necessary, the reverse could happen. The name of the article should remain the same, while an explanation could be added that it's still sometimes unofficially called the "Museum of Macedonia". --Antondimak (talk) 20:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

In Macedonian, yes. In English, they do not seem to include the full "Republic of". By "some websites", you mean the website, right? The museum has one homepage and it calls itself the Museum of Macedonia. Notice the copyright at the bottom of the webpage, "© 2021 Музеј на Македонија". Do you acknowledge that this is the homepage of the museum, that the name displayed up top and at the copyright is Museum of Macedonia, and that the Museum of Macedonia is the common name? --Local hero ^talk 04:13, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

No I don't, and I don't understand why this should be "the" source, just because in one one of the museum's marketing materials it's called that, while in others it isn't. The official name is "Museum of the Republic of North Macedonia", and the museum's official social media also call it that. In a website with no English version, intended for a Macedonian audience, the old name is used, and this is supposed to mean that this is the common name in English? --Antondimak (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

The common name in English is a result of searching on Google books. Give it a try. You've provided no evidence that the name change as intended by the document you cite has actually occurred. We already know it didn't happen for Macedonian Radio Television, so it calls into question the reliability of the entire list. The museum has one website and the copyrighted name (in Macedonian for obvious reasons) shows that a legal name change has not occurred. That name is Музеј на Македонија, correct? --Local hero ^talk 15:23, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

There is no indication that the government document isn't reliable. The change did happen for Macedonian Radio Television (all government documents/announcements call it by the new name) but in that case the old name is still used unofficially in almost all marketing material, so it was an edge case and we went the other direction. Again, in this case there is no proof of what the common English name is, the name has changed both officially and in a lot of marketing material, and there is just an untranslated non-English-language website that still calls it by the old name.

There are museums in Macedonia, Greece, a region with more inhabitants and generally more global attention, meaning we can't use Google books like that to determine usage, as the phrase would usually refer to something else. Even if "North Macedonia" and "North Macedonian" were used universally in all English-language sources when referring to anything related to the country, phrases containing "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" would still appear as more common due to that. --Antondimak (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Your issue with the official museum website is that it is in Macedonian? The social media sites are also in Macedonian, so does that negate your position? As for this particular search getting results from Greek museums, yes that's definitely true. That's why one must exclude such results ("-greece" in this case) as done so here: [3]. "Museum of North Macedonia" is not the common name. --Local hero ^talk 04:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes it is an issue if you are trying to use the argument that there is a common name in English used widely enough to replace the official name, and the evidence for that is one of the many websites the museums uses, in a language other than English.

When it comes to Google, it isn't that simple to exclude such results. You should compare such a search with one where "North Macedonia" is excluded, and also adjust the time period to post-2019, and also check sources other than books, as they account for a very small part of the volume of written English (as other sources such as news articles are excluded), and the results would still be pretty hard to interpret. Furthermore, if we considered such results useful, what you have specifically done there is that you have proven that "Museum of Macedonia" is not used, when it comes to museums outside of Greece, as you used the query ""museum of macedonia" -greece", and no books were returned. --Antondimak (talk) 08:38, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Which are the "many" websites of the museum? I have found only one. Why should the search results be only post-2019? I don't see a wiki policy that allows for arbitrary setting of timelines. No books in the search I linked? Here's one from that search. Though you are right that the search is a bit more complex because it is highly likely that a book mentioning this museum would also discuss "greece" at some point, so excluding those results isn't too helpful. Google maps seems to just call it [[42.002792299999996,21.4367116,[41.9964029,21.433165199999998]];tbs:lrf:!1m4!1u3!2m2!3m1!1e1!1m4!1u2!2m2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:1 Museum of Macedonia]. Notice, however, that searching for Museum of North Macedonia doesn't even bring results to this museum at all (except this wiki article since you moved the title). Isn't it weird that we call this museum something that a simple Google search cannot find? --Local hero ^talk 01:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

The websites are the same mentioned previously (own website, social media). The query that you linked previously returns no results when I click on it. I think Google maps takes the name from Wikipedia, but is not always updated/from the current version. I think last time I checked it it called it "Museum of North Macedonia". The new link does return results for "Museum of North Macedonia" for me, even though there shouldn't be a "-greece", for the reasons you mentioned, since "North" is specified in this case. Of course only results post-name change should be used, as was done for WP:MOSMAC. We are searching for the current name. If we used all sources we would still call the country "Republic of Macedonia" and would still call Eswatini "Swaziland". --Antondimak (talk) 12:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

In the interest of ending this unnecessarily long discussion, I'll just add detail to the lead. --Local hero ^talk 16:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC)