Talk:Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (Bo Hansson album)

Article title

BELOW TRANSCLUDED FROM USER PAGE User talk:Robsinden

Can I ask why you've moved the article to Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (Bo Hansson album)? There is only one album with this title on Wikipedia (the Mostly Autumn album title is subtly different - Music Inspired by THE Lord of the Rings). Therefore under Wikipedia naming conventions as outlined at WP:MUSTARD there's no need to specify the artist in the article title - editors should not disambiguate unless necessary (see the Disambiguation section of WP:MUSTARD). I suggest either reverting the move and leaving the album article where it was or relocating it to the Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings disambiguation page (although I do think that the disambiguation page is useful as it is). --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 08:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you totally that the Bo Hansson album should be under Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings and the Mostly Autumn album should be under Music Inspired by The Lord of the Rings (where it was) as they do have distinct titles. However, I tried to move Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (album) to Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings as I thought the disambiguation page unnecessary and that the hats were sufficient, but this was challenged, stating that it was a useful disambiguation page. As the "(album)" on the end does not disambiguate between the two albums, both this, and "Music Inspired by The Lord of the Rings" should, by the same logic, also be disambiguation pages. Thus in order to do this I moved the Bo Hansson album to Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (Bo Hansson album) and the Mostly Autumn album to Music Inspired by The Lord of the Rings (Mostly Autumn album), so that all disambiguation pages were fair. If you are thinking of moving these back to Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings and Music Inspired by The Lord of the Rings, I'd support this 100%, but not a move to Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (album). Hope I've explained my reasoning okay :) Rob Sinden (talk) 09:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, although I do sort of feel that the article belongs at Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings, I can also see that having that as a disambiguation page is useful because the album titles are so similar. However, I'm not really understanding your problem with simply having it at located at Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (album). There is no need to mention Bo Hansson in the title to disambiguate further because there is only one album called Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings on Wikipedia. The mention of Bo Hansson is totally superfluous...especially when we already have a disambiguation page to differentiate between the two similarly named albums. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but as far as I can see, if the article isn't located at Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings then it should definitely be at Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (album) as per the manual of style for popular music. By the way, I'd like to get this sorted out as soon as possible because the article will shortly be appearing in the Did you know... section of the front page and I'd like the correct link to used in DYK section, rather than using a redirect. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi again! As far as the disambiguation goes (and this is why I think disambiguation is unnecessary), it is to disambiguate between two articles which would have the same title. Usually, you would add "(album)" to disambiguate between an album and something else, but when what you are disambiguating against is also an album, you then need to disambiguate further (i.e. Reckoning (R.E.M. album)/Reckoning (Grateful Dead album)). The unique difficulty here is that although the albums have similar titles, they are not identical. However, to my mind, if we are disambiguating, we need to treat the two articles as if they do have identical titles, otherwise there's no point of disambiguating.

Which brings us back round to whether we should disambiguate. Personally (as I believe I've said) and I think you're edging towards the same thought, I don't think we need to - maybe we should requested move it to see what others think? Whatever happens, I think that the two albums should be treated the same. I don't think it was fair that the Mostly Autumn album was sitting at the root Music Inspired by The Lord of the Rings, where as the Bo Hansson album had to occupy a disambiguated page, with its root title a disambiguation. Hmm - messy sentence, but I'm sure you'll agree!

Should we transclude this exchange on the relevant talk page too?

And... I've just realised that I didn't congratulate you on the article. And thanks for being one of the most civil editors I've come across :) Rob Sinden (talk) 13:55, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this is an unusual case because the two album titles are very similar but not identical. I think you make a valid point that if we've decided to retain a disambiguation page for both albums then we should treat them as if they do have the same title. As I've said, I can see the usefulness of having the disambiguation page because people could potentially type in "Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings" for either album, so perhaps we should leave the disambiguation page as it is. On reflection, I agree that using a (Bo Hansson album) suffix is probably the best course of action. As an aside, I was thinking of creating a couple of redirect pages for the Bo Hansson album at Lord of the Rings (album) and The Lord of the Rings (album) because it is often referred to by this title and in fact, some of CD reissues of the album actually bear this shortened title. What do you think?

Thank you for your kind words and compliments on the article—I couldn't believe that an album as well known as this one didn't already have a Wikipedia article and yet other, more obscure Bo Hansson albums did. So, I decided to rectify the situation immediately. Initially I only intended to create a fairly brief stub-class article but then I got a bit carried away and ended up writing loads! :-D Anyway, yes...let's transclude this discussion to any relevant talk pages. I'll leave it up to you to decide where it should be transcluded. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay - I've transcluded it here on the talk page for the Bo Hansson album. I don't foresee a problem with creating those redirects - although may need to be disambigs again because of the soundtrack albums. Rob Sinden (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

On reflection, I agree that those proposed redirects should point towards a disambiguation page. The soundtrack albums for the Peter Jackson movie trilogy are all dealt with by a single entry at Music of The Lord of the Rings film trilogy and the 1978 movie soundtrack is at The Lord of the Rings (soundtrack). So, my feeling is that my proposed redirects should either point to the Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings disambiguation page or the more general The Lord of the Rings (disambiguation) page. Which do you think would be best? I'm leaning towards the latter because someone searching for the 1978 soundtrack album could just type "The Lord of the Rings (album)", and at least they'd end up on a disambiguation page that contains the album that they're looking for. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 11:54, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah - I'd be inclined to point those to the main disambiguation page too, which has a "Music" section on it, so anyone should be able to find what they're looking for easily enough. Rob Sinden (talk) 12:02, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, done. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Infobox guidelines for covers and release dates

Per Template:Infobox album#Cover and #Released, the "Cover" field of the infobox should feature the album cover of the original release and the "Released" field should only have the release date of the original release, which in this case would look like this. However, Kohoutek1138 reverted my changes back to this revision, claiming that the first release of this album in Sweden alone in 1970 had a different track listing (not that I think that's relevant to what "original release" means, but apart from language of the titles, that doesn't check out with Discogs' entries for this album) Thoughts? Kohoutek1138's revision or my revision? Dan56 (talk) 08:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I did not mean to be "patronising and arrogant", but your original edit summary when you reverted me cited a "different track listing & was only released in Sweden" as the reason its not the original version of the album, so I really didn't know what else to say. Dan56 (talk) 09:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Firstly, I wouldn't use discogs as source to judge when an album was released the earliest. From using the site myself, I find countless in-bickering about release dates, albums, and even incorrect adapted information. I would try and find the image that is most appropriate for the album cover that was the earliest. Perhaps it can be expanded upon in the text that it was released at a certain time with a different album art. We had similar problems with Trans-Europe Express at one point where there were 3 (!) different album covers going. It all comes down to "will having this album cover make the user know they are at the right article" and also historical depcitions of the cover. If you can find other sources discussing sleeve change, I think it'd be better to apply them in prose and then figure out what is most appropriate. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply - I agree with having one release date in the infobox. A chart of release dates such as this can serve the purpose of discussing other release dates. I will also agree with "official front cover of the original version of the album (or a reissue, if no original cover can be found) while other album covers can be included elsewhere in the article.

Additionally, would anyone be so kind as to comment at Talk:Acid Mothers Temple#Acid Mothers Temple discography regarding a potential split? Thanks! --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Andrzejbanas; I didn't mention Discogs as a source for the earliest known release (1970) or what cover is that of the earliest/original release (the one with red and yellow colors), because both of those aspects of the album are cited in the article and attributed to reliable sources. The editor who reverted me said that a different track listing (which the article doesn't show) between the 1970 release and the 1972 release is the reason the 1972 release's cover should be in the infobox. Knowing that the album was first released in Sweden in 1970 (albeit with Swedish song titles) and with the red and yellow colored-cover, can I then restore my revision? B/c "original" means first/earliest, b/c the album was originally released in 1970 with that red and yellow cover, and b/c the template infobox guidelines say the original cover and date should be there instead? Dan56 (talk) 18:19, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Dan56, I'm glad you didn't mean to be "patronising and arrogant" in your edit summaries. I feel as if my precise reasons for reverting your changes have been somewhat misunderstood, but the edit summery box only allows so much text and it's not always possible to put across a detailed reason beghind a revert. Anyway, let me explain and let's see if we can't find a resolution to this.

I'm well aware that usually the earliest release of an album should be at the top of the infobox -- and I think that this is right -- but with this album it might be best to perhaps ignore all rules. Before I go into why, let me just clarify a few things regarding this album's release. It was originally released under the title Sagan om ringen in Sweden in 1970 in very small numbers and with fewer tracks. Very soon after its release, Bo Hansson wrote extra material and these songs were added to the Sagan om ringen album for a re-release, bringing the track total to 11 (so the entry on Discogs must be for the more common 11 track album, not that rare first release with fewer tracks). The album Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings (essentially an international release of the 11 track Sagan om rigen album) wasn't released worldwide until late 1972.

Now, here comes the crux of my argument: This article, which is on the English Wikipedia, is for the album that was released in England, America and elsewhere in 1972 as Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings. 1972 saw the "original" release of an album with that specific title. It was the Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings album that went Gold in the UK and Australia and sold reasonably well in the U.S., NOT the Sagan om ringen album. This article is named Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings, as that is the title by which the LP is most recognised in the English speaking world (see WP:TITLE). To have an article named Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings that displays an album cover for Sagan om ringen at the top of the Infobox is confusing at best and misleading at worst.

In addition, I would contend that the album cover field in the infobox is as much for identification purposes as anything else...to indicate to the reader that they have landed on the correct article. As this is the English language Wikipedia, I feel it should be the cover that is best known outside of Sweden, in the English speaking world, that is used. This, coupled with the fact that the article is for an album called Music Inspired by Lord of the Rings and that no album with that name existed before September 1972, leads me to conclude that the Swedish Sagan om ringun cover should be used as an alternative cover in the infobox, not as the main cover image. I hope that makes sense. :) --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

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