Talk:Music of Cornwall

Promotion etc.

removing some of the OTT promotion of cornishmusic.com 131.111.8.102

crowdy crawn:- isn't that a dialect descendent of a cornish word rather than an actual cornish word? also mandolin, is this an imported instrument, weren't they used historically in the british isles? I dont know and i cant remember any specific references to them being used in cornish music (which i can for bagpipes, harps, bombardes etc.)

131.111.8.104

I've found a reference that 'cornwall embraced the mandolin' , I certainly know families that have a fair number of generations of players but I don't know where one would find 'source' documents,I presume this was because of cornwall being part of the mediterrenian trading area?

131.111.8.103

I've just started a process of upgrading this page as time allows. The rationale is that in the last 7 years so much has been discovered about Cornish music that we can now manage a much more complete and scholarly article, properly referenced etc. If any of you are not familiar with REED, Ilow Kernow , An Daras, and Ben Bruch's work at Harvard on music in the Cornish Verse Dramas, let me just say that we now have an opportunity to publish some good scholarship and really set Cornish music on a sound academic footing. Crowdercref 00:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who would know where to find references: It talks on Anao Atao's website (under tradition) about mandolin being adopted (prior to banjo etc.) anyone know where to find an original reference for this? 131.111.8.104

List of Cornish bands

Is there a list of cornish bands/trad cornish bands anywhere? I'm not sure how to create it... But I think this is necasary to prevent the 'modern scene' bit of this page from becoming advertising for anyone who pops by. It should really list only the long running or large bands/changes. Have removed Bold on Cornwall Fiddle orchestra, tempted to delete it outright since it seemed to be pure advertising & also unfair not to metion the prob more significant Bagas Crowd there. Have left for the mo. so it can be transferred to a list page when made. (which should be put at the beginning of this section.) 86.139.227.245 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

See List of Cornish musicians but any additions need to be supported by citations.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Cornish "National" Anthem

I see that the reference to"Trelawny" being called the "national" anthem of Cornwall has been removed with the comment that Cornwall is not a nation. Which is correct ? Cornwall is considered by some to be a separate nation, within the country of England as it has its own Cornish language, possesses an official government ethnic code- (see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes) and is recognised as a Celtic nation by organisations such as the Celtic League (political organisation). "Nation" should not be confused with "country" - members of a "nation" share a common identity, usually a common origin, in the sense of history, ancestry, parentage or descent. A House of Lords ruling in 1983 said: ‘an ethnic group has a distinct identity, based on recognising a long shared history and having distinct cultural traditions which may be related to one or more of the following characteristics - ancestry, geographical origin, nationality, country of birth, cultural traditions, religion and language. See - "The Cornish: A Neglected Nation ?" from the BBC by Dr Mark Stoyle [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.216.240 (talk) 14:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for posting your comments. You may describe it as being a "national" anthem, however that carries no weight for an encyclopeida. I am well aware of the view of some that Cornwall should be separated from the UK. But this is not the current situation. The BBC article is simply a brief report of the separatists view, but it does not confirm it is - which of course it can't. Similarly the quote from the HoL does not support Cornwall being a nation, and as an aside as a resident of the county I do not recognise that it has those characteristics listed. I do recognise that some Cornish believe it should be separate, with some even trying to claim it's an island (with the Tamar said to be the fulfil the obvious missing break across the land) But a wish, no matter how deep held, can not alter facts, and that is Cornwall is not a nation, as recognised by authorites such as The United Nations and the legal system of The United Kingdom (or if being pedantic that of England and Wales.) The Celtic League is, by its own definition, a poltical organisation. Its aims are highly controversal. It is not an appropriate authority to decide what regions are actually separate nations, and therefore override democratic statutes. Consequently would be incorrect to describe the song here as a "national" anthem. Because of this I have reverted the edit back to just anthem - and I am not sure why this description would be disagreeable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.63.168 (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with something worded along the lines of it being 'considered' to be the national anthem of cornwall? That is afterall true, just as its true to say that many people in cornwall consider it to be a nation seperate to england (I can point you to independent surveys if you wish.) Whether you are a member of that group is another thing, but in order to be 'encylopedic' it is important people's opinions are kept out and instead produce unbiased wording. (In fact the 'considered' wording is also appropiate because although trelawny is more popularily recognised, some more serious nationalists prefer bro goth agan tasow)

You have given arguments for it not being a nation but you must surely be aware there are arguments on the other side, in fact constitutionally (though not in terms of size and cultutral strength) it was is easier to justify cornwall as a nation than wales until the more recent privilages afforded to the latter. Delving into the legal status of cornwall opens up a whole can of eccentricities.

On the trelawny issue... This is something on which is have an opinion on. I consider it to be the national anthem of cornwall because it is/has been popularily considered so. However I know some people who want to make 'bro goth agan tasow' the national anthem, Personally I think this is pretty stupid & they've missed the point a bit by just making something they'd prefer rather than accepting an existing tradition. However in an article I'd word it in an unbiased way, along the lines of 'however some prefer...'

Cornwall was once more widely recognised as seperate from england, for example 'anglia et cornubia' on official documents, Henry VIII listing it as a seperate realm on his coronation and on maps prior to the prayer book rebellion. However, to me it appears that as the language declined so did this wider recognition. The point I'd like to make here is what is 'obvious' to one person is not to another, and to be encyclopedic means trying to produced unbiased wordings, and looking at/qouteing source material, rather than relying on personal feelings on what is 'obvious' about the matter.

BG 86.139.83.249 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC).

Choirs and Brass Bands

This article has no mention of the large number of choirs and of silver/brass bands, which form an important part of Cornwall's musical culture. Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 17:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Bro Goth Agan Tasow

Bro Goth Agan Tasow's tune is as far I know, identical to Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau. Does anyone know different? The lyrics between the two anthems are similar. Govynn (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

lead

"Cornwall has been percieved as historically Celtic". That's ridiculous, it's a Celtic nation with a Celtic language. Its like saying "Norway has been percieved as historically Germanic."142.22.115.2 (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Shanties and seamen's songs

Would it be worth mentioning the tradition of seamen's songs and shanty choirs, such as The Fisherman's Friends of Port Isaac? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherman%27s_Friends (188.146.149.139 (talk) 19:57, 16 September 2016 (UTC))

"Moribund" musical traditions

This page currently begins with the sentence: "Celtic-derived musical traditions had been moribund for some time before being revived during a late-20th-century roots revival."

There is no reference to back this up, and plenty of published research to the contrary. I'd like to propose altering the opening sentence.

There was undoubtedly a "roots revival" in the 1970s, but traditional ("Celtic") music, has never gone away. Hudson, in his 1908 book "The Land's End: a naturalist's impressions in West Cornwall" (p. 177) describes people dancing "on the beach to some simple music till eleven o'clock or later" at St Ives. A search through the British Newspaper Archive reveals hundreds of mentions of music that would now be interpreted as 'traditional' or 'Celtic'.

I would suggest changing the opener to read "Cornwall is a culturally Celtic nation. Strengthened by a series of 20th century revivals, traditional Celtic folk music has a popular following, accompanied by traditions of brass and silver bands, male voice choirs, classical, electronic and popular music.

This page could be enhanced by incorporating the published research on Cornish traditional music by Merv Davey which he also posts to https://exeter.academia.edu/MervDavey

If there's no objections, I'll make the change in a week or two.

Electric Antiquarian (talk) 11:01, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

karoles to caroles

I can't find any references to "karoles". However, wikt:carole shows up as a likely substitute. Any opposed to the change?

Alternatively, finding a source that uses the 'k' spelling, and the language it derives from would acceptable usage of the {{lang}} tag. Cheers! Elfabet (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

wikt:carole only lists French, Italian and Old French words. The English word is wikt:carol. As well as being a song typically sung at Christmas, this has a historical meaning of A round dance accompanied by singing, which matches the usage here and is mentiond in Carol (music). The full Oxford English Dictionary lists the following alternative spellings:

• Forms: ME–15 karol(e, karolle, carole, ME–16 caroll(e, ME–18 carrol(l, ME ( careld), caroul, karalle, ME–15 caral(le, carowl, 15 carralle, caril, caryl, carrell, karrel, 16 karil, ( carrold), ME– carol.

I think means that 'karole' was a archaic English spelling. The OED gives an example of this spelling from 1340, meaning dances:

• 1340 Ayenbite (1866) 71 — Oure blisse is ywent in-to wop, oure karoles into zorȝe.

This is probably Ayenbite of Inwyt, which is in Kentish dialect (Old English) and does not support the use of this spelling here.

There is a Cornish dance called 'Corol an Vro',[2] which looks a bit like mis-spelt Welsh so it is probably Cornish.

We are writing in modern English and I see no good reason to use archaic spelling. The word is not mentioned in the source cited at the end of the paragraph.[3] In the absence of a source I suggest we change this to 'carols'. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)