Talk:Music of the Mother series

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Music of the EarthBound series/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cannibaloki 20:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   "EarthBound, known in Japan as Mother, is a role-playing game series created by Shigesato Itoi for Nintendo. The series started in 1989 with the Japan-only release of Mother, which was followed up by Mother 2 for the Super NES in 1995, known outside Japan as EarthBound. A second sequel was released in Japan only, Mother 3, for the Game Boy Advance in 2006." EarthBound is known in Japan as Mother and Mother 2 is known outside Japan as EarthBound? Clarify please.

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   The files were provided, but its use is questionable. The audio sample of the song "Love Theme" has a fair use rationale for Mother 3, but is not been used in that article. I think this sample do not meet the non-free content criteria.--Cannibaloki 04:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   The article have a low-quality image for the first soundtrack, 1989's Mother, but I think this image has been used only to decorate the infobox. Its importance is not being discussed in the article. The album cover shows the word "MOTHER" in a shade of green over a red background; the letter "O" of "MOTHER" is replaced by an image of planet Earth, also with a greenish tinge.--Cannibaloki 04:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   On hold for a week.--Cannibaloki 04:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

   Passed. All issues fixed, this article meets the Good article criteria.--Cannibaloki 19:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

 Doing...--Cannibaloki 20:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments

• "Some pieces from the soundtrack such as "Eight Melodies" and "Pollyanna" were reused in various forms [What forms?] in the other games in the series."

• "Some of the music from the game was released as an album [an album, soundtrack or soundtrack album?], Mother, by CBS/Sony [Linked to Sony Music Entertainment Japan?] on August 21, 1989 with the catalog number 32DH-5285." Is the catalog number relevant or even encyclopedic?

• "It consists of eleven tracks, seven of which are English vocal arrangements of songs from the game, and has a total duration of 1:03:47. The arrangements that were done [created?] by Suzuki, David Bedford, Takeshi Saitoh, and Michael Nyman."

• "The album was re-released on February 18, 2004 by Sony Music Direct with the catalog number of MHCL-341. The tracks on this release are digitally remastered, a twelfth track from Earthbound was added entitled "Smile and Tears", and "The World of MOTHER" was replaced with a version that was six minutes longer. The re-release has a length of 1:15:49." The soundtrack was reissued on February 18, 2004 by Sony Music Direct with its tracks digitally remastered, a song from Earthbound entitled "Smile and Tears" was added, and the track "The World of Mother" was replaced with a version that is six minutes longer.

• "The album was well received..." [Are you sure of this?]

• "In a different Famitsu interview [We really need to use this kind of wording?], Shigesato Itoi said..."

• "Suzuki has estimated that he composed over 100 pieces of music for EarthBound, including songs that did not make it into the game, and says that his favorite was the bicycle music, which he had actually composed before starting work on the game." What is bicycle music?

• "Mother 2: Gyiyg no Gyakushū (MOTHER2ギーグの逆襲?, lit. "Mother 2: Gyiyg Strikes Back") is The soundtrack album for EarthBound. The album was released by Sony Records in Japan on November 2, 1994 with the catalog number SRCL-3024."

• "The album's 24 tracks have a duration of 59:49; many of the tracks are arrangements combining several pieces from the game into one piece. [The album has 24 tracks, where many of these tracks are arrangements combining several pieces from the game into one piece.] The final three tracks on the album consist of remixes of multiple tracks merged together; for example, "Room Number (PSI MIX)" is a remixed version of several "shop" and "hotel" themes combined into one song." When you wrote the example, it simply made the sentence confusing. What are several "shop" and "hotel" themes?

• "A combined soundtrack for the collection, Mother 1+2, was released by Toshiba-EMI on August 20, 2003 with the catalog number of TOCT-25125. This single-disc album contained 26 tracks and spanned a duration of 1:01:28."

• "Another album for the collection, Mother 1+2 midi Piano Version, was released three years later on May 27, 2006 by Sky Port Publishing with the catalog number of SPCD-001; The album contained MIDI piano arrangements by Shunsuke Sakamoto of songs from the two games, with its music covering many different moods, from "lively to sedated". Like the soundtrack album it contained 26 tracks, but with several different tracks than the first album. The music selected for arrangement covered many different moods, from "lively to sedated". The album had a length of 55:38, and like the first album had its first ten tracks from Mother and the other 16 tracks from Earthbound." Like the soundtrack album, Mother 1+2 midi Piano Version had its first ten tracks taken from Mother and the other 16 from Earthbound, but with several different tracks than the first album.

• "On November 2, 2006, the MOTHER3+ soundtrack album was released by Tokyo Itoi Shigesato Office with the catalog number HOBO-0004. The album contained ten tracks from the game with a total duration of 28:50. It was also released in the iTunes Music Store on February 2, 2007, featuring an additional bonus track, "MOTHER3 – theme of LOVE-", though this album has since been removed from the iTunes store. The MOTHER3+ soundtrack album was first released by Tokyo Itoi Shigesato Office on November 2, 2006, and then distributed through the iTunes Music Store on February 2, 2007, featuring an additional bonus track, "MOTHER3 – theme of LOVE". Another album of music from the game, MOTHER3i, was released on February 6, 2007 by Tokyo Itoi Shigesato Office in the iTunes store and other online music services. This album contains 15 tracks with a total duration of 1:05:55, and Like the Earthbound soundtrack album, each track of MOTHER3i is a combination of several tracks from the game itself, though it still does not cover all of the tracks from the game."

Remix in Pokémon?

Would it be notable to say that The Last Road theme from the Generation I Pokémon games is actually a remix of Mt. Itoi's theme from Mother 1? This is further evidenced by the fact that Ape (now Creatures, Inc.) has also co-developed the main series Pokémon games. 85.240.138.55 (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, that could be asserted should the proper sources be provided; unfortunately unless you can find them, that interesting idea can't be put in the article. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 10:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Image use

Great article, but I fear that the images might be too great in number. Seeing as how there's no clear image to use, it might be best to either use one cover as an example for the lead or just not have any images and limit the article to only the .ogg. (pinging User:PresN for his comment). - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 10:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

When the article was promoted, there was just the one cover. I'm cool chopping it back to that and the .ogg; I mainly try to stay out of the fight about how many album images are allowed in a conglomerate article like this. --PresN 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Famitsu verification

How did you access the Famitsu interviews mentioned in this article? I'd like to read them czar ♔ 02:01, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

1992?

How could the Tokyo Philharmonic had played music from EarthBound in 1992 if the game as released in 1994???. –– ♫ Mara ♫ 08:42, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@McLennonSon: It is odd, but it's actually true (check out the recording date here). Apparently these two songs predate the game's release by two years. Also, the correct conducting unit is the Tokyo Memorial Orchestra, not the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra as previously stated. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Split and merging

• There are only two parts of this proposal, which I need to clarify

1. Move (the only) two paragraphs from Music of the Mother series#Legacy to Mother (video game series)#Legacy and Mother (video game series)#Music. I don't feel strongly about this suggestion. I just think it looks weird that this article is basically a list of esoteric soundtrack/arranged albums followed by a couple sentences on how the game's music has become iconic among Japanese youth and just a few more about appearances in other games and orchestral performances.
2. Remove redundant paragraphs concerning the development of the game's soundtracks (WP:REDUNDANTFORK). This one I'm not sure why anyone would oppose. All of this information is already on their games' main articles, and it doesn't take up a lot of space. See for yourself here, here, and here.

--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

This article is unnecessary Portions of this article should be split to List of Mother albums, and background/context on individual game's music merged to their respective games' articles. After that is done, the article quickly becomes redundant of Mother (video game series)#Music, leaving only two arranged albums. The broader information is not big (~5KB total) and can easily fit into Mother (video game series). Although most of it is probably already there — at least half of this article is duplicated info already.

Of the arranged albums, Mother (Keiichi Suzuki and Hirokazu Tanaka album) has 7 sources to fulfill WP:NALBUM. The other, for Mother 1+2, has only 2. There is basically nothing to the Mother 1+2 album, it is almost like a doujin work. The Mother album is undoubtedly significant, especially with participation from figures like Suzuki, Michael Nyman, Louis Philippe, and a host of other prominent Japanese avant-pop musicians from that era (employed on the album as session players).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 11:12, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - I can't tell you how much of a fan I am that you proposed a split while moving off large chunks of the article to the game articles, and then claiming that it should be split because it duplicates what is at the game articles. Really. I can't. Anyways, don't have time to fully investigate this morning, but typically the development sections of a game article would get overwhelmed by the amount of music-related text that would have to get moved from here. Also, your tag wants a whole new stub article on the Mother album? Even though Earthbound has just as much content, Mother 3 has more, and Mother 1+2 and the legacy section just gets chopped up and left to the mist. I don't understand why you're just source-counting, rather than looking at the content, to determine where the information to be split to. If we're going to play that game, I have a great idea for an article- why don't we move all the music information together into one place? I bet we could get, say, 28 sources all told. --PresN 12:32, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

As per the edit I just reverted- 1) please don't open a split discussion, the revert anyone who doesn't like you going ahead and splitting anyways. 2) "Why should this background information remain in this article when it has nothing to do with the soundtrack itself?" - because this article is "music" of the series, not "albums" of the series, so the composer talking about the process of composing and the influences on the composition is not background information. --PresN 12:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

There is not enough content about the music of each game to merit a split. WP:SIZERULE states articles between 60KB and 100KB may typically justify their lengths if the scope is wide enough. It is clearly justified here. After 100KB, it "almost certainly should be divided". Here's how all these other articles currently look.

• Mother (series) (74 kilobytes)
  • 1.7KB devoted to the article's "music" section
  • ~3.1KB of information is contained under "legacy" (whether unique or not)
• Mother (game) (28 kilobytes)
  • 1.8KB devoted to the article's "music" section
  • ~2.5KB of unique (not copy and pasted) info is in this article (neglecting infoboxes and track listing templates)
• EarthBound (91 kilobytes)
  • 7.5KB devoted to the article's "music" section
  • ~0.8KB of unique (not copy and pasted) info is in this article (neglecting infoboxes and track listing templates)
• Mother 3 (58 kilobytes)
  • 2.4KB devoted to the article's "music" section
  • ~2.04KB of unique (not copy and pasted) info is in this article (neglecting infoboxes and track listing templates)

All of these articles are well below 100KB. The largest, at 91KB, doesn't even exceed a difference of 1KB. It makes no sense to have this article. You wouldn't create Development of the Mother series, Reception of the Mother series, or Plot of the Mother series. Why Music of the Mother series? As for "I don't understand why you're just source-counting, rather than looking at the content" — you can make a 100KB article from one source, but it wouldn't demonstrate more notability than a 5KB article with 10 sources.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:29, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: I understand that WP:SPINOFF validates "large summary style overview meta-articles which are composed of many summary sections". This is not a large article. It only contains about 10KB of unique content. After merging, none of the other articles grow larger than 2-3KB. They currently range between 30KB and 90KB. When EarthBound goes beyond 100KB, it would make more sense to create Legacy of Earthbound, since that is the largest and most extraneous portion of the article.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:51, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

"Plot of the Mother series" wouldn't be allowed for copyright reasons either way. There exist plenty of "development" article on specific video games (such as Development of The Last of Us), so in principle, I have nothing against that idea. Make a draft first, though. However, I'm primarily in favor of this specific article existing because its content would constitute undue weight in their respective articles with their current level of detail. I'd hate to lose details such as reception of specific soundtracks or development of specific soundtracks. Can you imagine all the content in the Earthbound section simply being copy-pasted in the original article? It already has a large amount of content describing the music in the game itself; it doesn't need to also describe the soundtrack CD and its history. Moreover, you're suggesting a separate article for the soundtrack of Mother 1, which seems somewhat silly when its section is just as large as all the others. Is there any reason to believe that this specific article could be massively expanded? I haven't looked at the sources in much detail, but assuming that this was done well during the GA review, surely the section here already describes the topic without any major holes.

Even more to the point, Development of Mother 3 is a GA. --PresN 01:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

The sources seem a bit weak, with most of the content being covered by Square Enix Music Online and RPGFan. Maybe someone just needs to take a better look at the sources to see if these albums are really all that notable on their own. The idea of creating a "Mother (Keiichi Suzuki and Hirokazu Tanaka album)"-article seems very odd to me, though.

I noticed a mention of creating a "List of Mother albums" on the page. To be honest, I think this already is a "List of Mother albums, seeing as it literally only discusses each of the game's albums. I wouldn't mind a rename, though I think that would mean that this article would have to go through a Featured List review if we want to keep this a Good Topic. It may be considered a more honest title, anyway. ~Mable (chat) 14:31, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

"Can you imagine all the content in the Earthbound section simply being copy-pasted in the original article?" — Everything apart from the soundtrack details is already there, and with better grammar. "it doesn't need to also describe the soundtrack CD and its history." — Exactly, that would go to List of Mother albums. "Moreover, you're suggesting a separate article for the soundtrack of Mother 1" — Because it's not a soundtrack, it's more like a tribute.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Note – I wrote this right in the middle of when you were changing your request, so I was rather confused while writing it. I've always seen this as somewhat of a list of Mother albums, with some overall legacy and such added to it. I have no idea what the best course of action is for this article, but its exact scope might need some work. I like the idea of discussing what to do with this article, but I don't think suggesting a split without having somekind of proof-of-concept is the right way to do it. I'm still thinking about it, anyway. ~Mable (chat) 14:49, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

It would look (very) roughly like this.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 15:13, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - There is more than enough reliably sourced content to justify a separate article, and much of it would get lost if made part of a larger article. The game article would lose their focus on the subject, the games, if tons of music and albums inspired by the series were added. Video game music is a very popular phenomena and needs coverage, and that often cannot be done from within the main game article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

The information about the albums would not be added to the articles, they would be located to List of Mother albums. There is very little content to add about the music on the game articles. All of it is already there.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

@Judgesurreal777: Ask yourself: do these article sections look too big to you? [1] [2] [3] If not, then please change your vote. You've misunderstood the issue. Nothing would get added. It's this article that some things would be removed.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - Per others arguments and for consistency. Would articles like Music of Kingdom Hearts also be moved if this were to happen? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

@Dissident93: No? That article functions in exactly the same way as I'm proposing this article to function. The only difference is that there is much more general info on the Kingdom Hearts article. And that's because there's more than a dozen games to the franchise, all of them in more or less the same style with the same composer. There's only 3 Mother games, and with little consistency between them.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 29 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Request withdrawn. PresN 18:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

---

Music of the Mother series → List of Mother albums – This article may function better as a list of albums associated with the game series, not as a meta-article summarizing the music of every game. The end result would look approximately like this.Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:52, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

To all: it may be useful to put the above discussion "on pause" until we at least understand the scope of the article. I personally have no strong opinions on this. The article looks primarily like a list of Mother albums, but I accept the idea that it could be expanded to discuss the series' music in more detail. ~Mable (chat) 14:55, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

In addition, there's the kinda-sorta issue over whether the game series is known as "Mother" or "EarthBound" outside of Japan. I'd hold off on a move for now.  ONR  (talk)  20:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose

• Oppose - inconsistent with article naming standards in this area- it's "list of" if you just have a bare recounting of albums; it's "music of" if you have development information or discussion of the songs themselves. It does sound like we should try to find more sources to expand the article, as per Mable. --PresN 01:19, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - The problem is primarily that the article is prose, and the list itself would be very small. All the detail would get stripped out in a list type format. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:16, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

• Withdraw - I was unaware of Category:Music by media franchise, which demonstrates that these sorts of list articles are typically named "Music of [media franchise]".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Sound sample?

In the article written by Kotaku's Chris Person citing the music similarities, it points out how similar Ric Ocasek's "This Side of Paradise" is with "Moonside Swing". Should a sample of Moonside's theme be included in the article along with a sentence describing the Kotaku writer's claim? --NowIsntItTime 22:45, 4 November 2018 (UTC)