Talk:NHS Nightingale Hospitals

Requested move 29 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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NHS Nightingale Hospitals → NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals – Distinguish from the London hospital, which is known to be called NHS Nightingale Hospital London, from the national network of hospitals which may or may not bear the "Nightingale" name The Anome (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC) Request withdrawn. -- The Anome (talk) 17:45, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The NHS is actually four different devolved organisations: one for England, one for Northern Ireland, one for Scotland and one for Wales. The NHS Nightingale Hospitals are an NHS England initiative, and this article was created as an umbrella for those three hospitals currently either being built or still being planned. Initiatives from the other three organisations can be covered in either their respective NHS organisation articles or in new articles if they become notable. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The new title doesn't seem to be the common name. It is also ambiguous because it might refer to existing hospitals which are already being used for such treatment. We need to see how the naming settles down. If they stick with the Nightingale name then we might have the title as List of NHS Nightingale Hospitals but let's wait before making a move. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose the common name is Nightingale, and it's also a more concise name. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:48, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose — Since the hospitals have been widely named as NHS Nightingale, that’s the sign over the door, and that is therefore what the reading public are going to be looking for, that’s what the article should be called. Star-one (talk) 13:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto and Star-one: It's certainly the name over the door of one of the hospitals, and reported to be the planned name of two others, all three being in the NHS England area. We don't know whether the others will have the Nightingale name at the moment. Regardless of all of this, the NHS is a single entity from the viewpoint of national disaster planning (and branding, and in the public mind), and I don't think we need to have four articles, one for each of the devolved NHS regions, where one would do just fine. -- The Anome (talk) 13:43, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: there are four NHSs in the UK, each under a different government and each operating to their own agendas. As they each have their own separate articles in Wikipedia, I cannot see how it makes any sense to combine their independent initiatives in relation to Covid-19 in a single article here. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggested name change

Since the hospitals have been widely named as NHS Nightingale, that’s the sign over the door, and that is therefore what the reading public are going to be looking for, that’s what the article should be called. Star-one (talk) 13:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Scope of this "Nightingale Hospitals" article?

Do we have any reliable sources supporting the UK-wide scope that has been asserted for the NHS Nightingale Hospitals?

Today, NHS England (just 'England' note) put out a press release[1] saying: "The NHS has confirmed that the new hospitals are being built in London, Birmingham and Manchester and other sites are being considered should the need arise." No mention of the Scottish or Welsh hospitals there.

Meanwhile, and also today, the Scottish government announced plans for a similar facility in Glasgow's SEC, but the name "Nightingale" hasn't been used for that.[2]

Similarly in Wales, Cardiff and Vale University Health Board put out a press release a few days ago[3] titled: "Cardiff and Vale University Health Board secures Principality Stadium as Field Hospital in plans for tackling Covid-19". Nothing about "Nightingale Hospitals" in there either, or the English or Scottish hospitals.

Isn't this (the 'Nightingale' Hospitals) just an NHS England initiative? -- DeFacto (talk). 13:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Just to clarify my intentions, when I created this article, my intention was to create an article for the UK-wide effort, but at that time I had no appropriate name, so I chose the only one that had been used in the press at that point. I don't think we need articles for each regional effort: nor indeed every individual stadium field hospital. One article for the national effort, and one for each individually notable mega-field-hospital seems appropriate to me. -- The Anome (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: there isn't (as far as we can tell from the reliable sources, at least) a UK-wide effort on this. The NHS Nightingale Hospitals were announced by NHS England and Matt Hancock (who has little, or no involvement in either the Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales services) as a purely NHS England initiative. Sure the other three services each have their own initiatives too, but they are not part of this one. For now, and until the reliable sources tell us otherwise, I think we need to keep the scope of this article to be the umbrella for just the NHS England Nightingale Hospitals only. In time some of the others of those might justify having their own articles too, as for NHS Nightingale Hospital London. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Note too, that by the time this article was created, the other article, NHS Nightingale Hospital, had morphed from covering the London hospital only, to covering the others being contemplated in England too. But as this article was created, the other reverted to cover just the London hospital, leaving this one to be the umbrella. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Of course there's a UK-wide effort to do this. We have field hospitals being built in England and Wales, and planned construction in Scotland. Do you really think that the national government, which controls the British Army (which is co-participant in this via MACA) which answers only to national government not NHS regions, is letting the NHS regions busk this individually? -- The Anome (talk) 14:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Update:' and, at the very least, we know that planning work has gone on in Northern Ireland too.[4] -- The Anome (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@The Anome: all I know is what I've seen in the reliable sources, and I haven't seen anything in them that suggests that the independent national health services have worked together on this. If you can provide reliable sources to support this being a joint effort, then I'd happily concede that the other three be included too. But for now, all we know is that the "NHS Nightingale Hospital" schemes was announced by NHS England and Matt Hancock, and that similar schemes were announced independently by the devolved governments of the other three home nations. As the article content you added is currently unsupported, as it implies otherwise, I think that, unless you can provide sources for it, you should follow WP:BRD and self-revert to the wording we can currently reliably source. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:46, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

DeFacto, My two cents, as someone who's only been involved in the related AfD, but who was invited to this discussion: I'm not sure it matters whether there's a concerted UK-wide effort or not. The question seems to me to be whether we should have a separate article for the England initiative and for the efforts across the UK, or whether the England initiative should just be a section on a national page (leaving aside the separate question over whether any of the individual field hospitals should have their own articles). My feeling on this is that the reader is best served by a single article covering the whole thing nationally, under a title that reflects that the "Nightingale" name only applies to England; that seems to be the direction the AfD is going as well. I suspect most readers looking for information on this will neither know nor particularly care that the initiatives are separate across the Home Nations; since the "Nightingale" name has been used most extensively in the media, to look it up and find this article that doesn't mention Cardiff or Glasgow would be unnecessarily confusing. That being said, if this article is to be kept, clearly its scope should be limited to England. YorkshireLad  ✿  ^(talk) 22:10, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Source of the dispute?

@DeFacto:, I think may understand the difference in our opinions on this. You want an article on the NHS England initative, yes? I want there to be an article on the national effort, which encompasses all the regions, and of course subsumes the NHS England effort. Let's create both! Agreed?

Then we can merge the NHS England article, and any other regional article, into the national one in due course. -- The Anome (talk) 14:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: you asked: You want an article on the NHS England initative, yes?. Not necessarily. All I want is for this article (NHS Nightingale Hospitals) to cover exactly what it says on the tin - the NHS Nightingale Hospitals. And all we have, in the reliable sources at the moment, on that subject is what NHS England have announced. All the other home nations have announced separate schemes too, but as far as I can see from the sources, none of those use the branding "NHS Nightingale Hospital". For now, I'd say cover the other three in a section in their respective NHS articles. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Then I think there are two ways to go. One, we rename this article to something that covers the entire country (which may or may not use the "Nightingale" name, we don't know yet), and spin off a separate article for the NHS England initiative, which we definitely know uses the "Nightingale" name. Or two, we limit the scope of this article to the NHS England initiative, and start up a separate article for the national effort. -- The Anome (talk) 15:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: you missed the most obvious way - keep this article as it is, and remove stuff from it that is outside of the scope of its title. Then, if there is evidence of notability for schemes in any of the other three countries, create articles to cover them too - otherwise add sections to their respective health service articles. If there is deemed to be a need for an umbrella article to cover the schemes of all the four separate home nations, and there are sufficient RSs grouping them like that to make it notable, then create another article for that too. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:36, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: I didn't realize that was your only stipulation. Here are four that took me less than five minutes to find:

• "More NHS temporary hospitals are to be opened across England, Wales and Scotland to cope with the coronavirus outbreak" [5]
• "Now, the UK is following suit by creating five new hospitals capable of treating a total of 10,000 patients in London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Glasgow and Manchester" [6]
• "Coronavirus: NHS field hospitals 'being considered' in Scotland and Manchester" [7]
• And, gloriously, "Coronavirus: Plans continue for more ‘field hospitals’ in events spaces across UK" [8]

All of these articles discuss the field hospital building as a national phenomenon. -- The Anome (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Update: since I have now provided the evidence you required, I've created a new article, NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals, to encompass the UK-wide initiative, and trimmed this article down to just the NHS England Nightingale Hospitals. I hope this resolves this issue. If you wish to merge the articles at some later stage, you are welcome to do so. -- The Anome (talk) 17:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It's a UK-wide effort. The British military is being used to build it and COBRA is leading the UK response. Erzan (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I've just read through the discussion and I tend to agree with The Anome that this is clearly a UK-wide effort with different flavours in the 4 nations, and that it makes the most sense for the reader to have one central article to cover them all with regards to the COVID-19 response. If there is enough information later then separate articles can spin off from this. As such it now seems sensible to merge this article into NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals per AFD. |→ Spaully ^~talk~  01:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Definition of a Nightingale hospital and the number of them

The article header specifies that there are three Nightingales, the text says there are four Nightingales, and the table says there are five Nightingales. Plus the definition seems blurred: is "Nightingale" used for those hospitals with "Nightingale" over the door, is it a generic term for emergency hospitals, what? What are the names of these hospitals: will the facility in Bristol actually be called "NHS Nightingale [Bristol]" and, if not, what will it be called? I appreciate that this is a fast-moving situation and so these questions may not be answerable at the moment, but some improvement in clarity would be welcome. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:35, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Anameofmyveryown: with respect to the count, per the cited prose in the article there are five such hospitals, so I've updated the hatnote, but I couldn't see where in the text it says there are "four".

With respect to the hospital names, it seems that the only one currently confirmed is the NHS Nightingale Hospital London. It seems likely that the others will follow the same pattern, but without confirmation it's not known precisely what the geographic qualifier will be (hence just the nearest town/city is used to disambiguate them for now and put in square bracket to show they aren't confirmed). For example, we do not know if the Manchester one will be called "NHS Nightingale Hospital North West", or "NHS Nightingale Hospital Manchester", or whatever. Similarly the others might be "NHS Nightingale Hospital West Midlands", "NHS Nightingale Hospital South West" and "NHS Nightingale Hospital Yorkshire and the Humber", but until they are confirmed we do not know.

Incidentally, if you see errors or inconsistencies in the article which contradict what is reliably sourced, you should feel free to have a go at fixing it. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Nightingale Hospitals are UK wide

Another new article today, highlighting that a second Nightingale Hospital is being established in Northern Ireland. [9], yet this article continues to make out as though The "Nightingale Hospitals" are only in England. Even if the individual hospitals are called something different, they are still clearly what the media and UK Government are referring to as Nightingale Hospitals and the article should reflect that. RWB2020 (talk) 11:18, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the above, I would support reshaping this article as a UK-wide discussion. Pinging @The Anome: @DeFacto: @Spaully: as recently involved editors, have I missed any discussions elsewhere or is this something people are generally supportive of? For example the Cardiff Nightingale Hospital is opening and will be the second largest UK hospital by hospital beds. It seems very confusing if we don't mention such major sites on this page titled 'NHS Nightingale Hospitals', which on the face of it ought to include NHS Scotland, NHS Wales, and NHS Northern Ireland. Including them in the separate NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals page doesn't help because that doesn't reconcile the fact each country is different either. I can only see these options:

• Reshape this article. The Covid-19 response is a collaborative one between the devolved governments and the UK Government and we can reflect this in the article with the caveat that day to day healthcare is still devolved while resources are now being shared.
• Create four separate Nightingale pages for each nation. If the other countries cannot be grouped here with NHS England I can't see why we group them at NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals either. They should instead have their own pages if so.
• Rename this page NHS England Nightingale Hospitals and rename NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals in the United Kingdom or similar

Llemiles (talk) 11:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Llemiles and RWB2020: Integrate all into NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals. Yes, pendantically, there are four separate devolved NHS authorities, but the NHS is like the Holy Trinity in this respect; one thing with four aspects, both from the viewpoint of the general public and the central UK government which ultimately calls the tune. -- The Anome (talk) 11:54, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

What would then happen to this article? Its name still appears confusing. Would it become NHS England Nightingale Hospitals? Llemiles (talk) 13:44, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Llemiles: This article would be merged into the national article. -- The Anome (talk) 13:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: have you seen any evidence on the websites of the Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh devolved governments or their respective health services associating their temporary hospitals with the UK government's NHS England "NHS Nightingale" initiative? -- DeFacto (talk). 15:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Llemiles: the Cardiff hospital hospital is going to be called Ysbyty Calon y Ddraig (Dragon's Heart Hospital) - a clear snub to any notion that it is part of any UK-wide initiative "NHS Nightingale" initiative. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@RWB2020: no, I just think it's the UK government and/or the press having an over romanticised view about the cohesion of the four health services and their willingness to rally under the "Nightingale" name. It is clear that none of the other three health services are interested in following NHS England's enthusiasm the adopt the "NHS Nightingale" prefix. Last time I looked, there was no suggestion on any of the other health services embracing the "NHS Nightingale" name on their websites. And neither do their devolved government masters want to buy into the notion that it is the UK central government rather than themselves who are leading their health services' initiatives. You need look no further than the Nightingale-free names given to the first Scottish (NHS Louisa Jordan Hospital) and Welsh (Dragon's Heart Hospital) temporary hospitals. We can continue to use the NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals article as the UK umbrella article, but I think the English NHS Nightingales are notable enough in their own right to justify this stand-alone article of their own. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:08, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I give you this: https://www.health-ni.gov.uk/news/health-minister-visits-northern-irelands-first-nightingale-hospital , complete with a picture of Robin Swann and Chief Nursing Officer Charlotte McArdle holding up a poster with "Nightingale NI" written on it. Also this and this. -- The Anome (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: is there any coverage in the websites of Scotland and Wales? -- DeFacto (talk). 15:33, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No, just NI. But my point is that the "Nightingale" name is not longer exclusive to NHS England. -- The Anome (talk) 15:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

If NI are onboard, then perhaps we should include them too. But why Scotland and Wales if they are not acknowledging themselves to be included? -- DeFacto (talk). 15:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is any evidence they are excluding themselves. They clearly wish to use locally relevant names for good reason, but I'm not sure that's a snub towards the Nightingale idea. All I would like is that this article be clear in its approach. If we feel this is an article about English measures, I think we should name it NHS England Nightingale Hospitals. If you feel the NHS Wales and Scotland hospitals are distinctly not Nightingale hospitals then that name is especially important so that users do not think this is a coordinated NHS Nightingale programme. NI may have to have their own article if they are doing the Nightingale approach as I think NHS England and Northern Ireland would just be too clunky. Llemiles (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Undiscussed move

I just reverted a move of this article to NHS England Nightingale Hospitals by Llemiles. Please allow editors to discuss proposed moves, and wait for a consensus to be reached, before moving the article. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I have raised a discussion above but felt at the time it was an uncontroversial move and it has so far had no response. I'd assume seeing as the article is clearly about NHS England, it is not controversial to state these are NHS England hospitals. Will happily leave this for a few days though. Llemiles (talk) 18:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The common name for these hospitals is "NHS Nightingale Hospitals" though, not "NHS England Nightingale Hospitals", wherever they are. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

WP:PRECISION would necessitate that we distinguish. Clearly this page alone indicates a confusion among editors about how hospitals opening in other parts of the UK are defined, and that would indicate we need to be careful in labelling the activities of each NHS across the UK. NHS Nightingale Hospitals could, to an average reader, be in any part of the UK depending on their level of existing knowledge. NHS England helps to direct them. Llemiles (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 19 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus against this move buidhe 00:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

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NHS Nightingale Hospitals → NHS England Nightingale Hospitals – There is clearly a difference between the operational National Health Services, or officially the Health and Social Care department in Northern Ireland. It is important that we distinguish that this article only relates to hospitals managed and operated by NHS England, and that other coronavirus hospitals, whether named Nightingale or not, are not dealt with here. Feels to me that there is an important need to follow the practice of History of the National Health Service (England) and List of hospitals in England that we treat major policies of each NHS country as independent, and provide WP:PRECISION. See my earlier comments above as of 16:17, 17 April 2020. Llemiles (talk) 13:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The current article title is the common name of these. If, at some time in the future, that name needs disambiguating, then perhaps we should think about renaming it - to something like "NHS Nightingale Hospitals (England)", perhaps - but currently I don't think that need has arisen. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as above. Are there any others? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:03, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - this proposal is contrary to WP:PRECISION - "Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that." There are no NHS Scotland or NHS Wales Nightingale hospitals, so adding the word "England" is unnecessary disambiguation. Mauls (talk) 09:40, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose but drifting towards supporting a moratorium on all these NHS hospital page-move requests...——SN54129 11:24, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as per @DeFacto:. EVIL! Said Mermaid Man. (talk) 17:01, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To what extent are these actually used?

Criticism here: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/29/matt-hancock-hospitals-warped-priorities-cost-lives-coronavirus Kaihsu (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Standby

I feel standby is being used in two difference contexts here. In the spring 2020 the hospitals were being stood down to standby indicating the probability they would not be needed .... and in Autumn 2020 we are seeing stood up to standby to prepare for possible use with a few short weeks. I find it unhelpful standby being used in both these contexts in the same section. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

You improved the wording later the same day, so this discussion is closed. Wire723 (talk) 08:46, 22 October 2020 (UTC)