Talk:NKVD prisoner massacres

Untitled

What a remarkable example of Polonocentrism. Were not NKVD prisoners massacred elsewhere? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's polonocentrism - the answer is much more prosaic: it's just a stub. I do agree that info on massacres outside Poland should be added. Would you care to do this?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

For Deletion

I've put up this article for deletion for the following reasons:

1. This stub does not list any facts that would justify a stub. IMO, before creating an acticle that groups similar events, one should first create separate articles describing each of those events.
2. And yes, there is already an acticle on Katyn Massacre. Got more?
3. There is absolutely no factual base under what's stated in this stub.

Zealander 05:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Katyn is not the same. This is a different massacre. --Molobo 11:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Here is an example: Richard Rhodes Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust: Quote: “Despite the deportations, Barbarossa surprised the NKVD, whose jails and prisons in the invaded western territories were crowded with political prisoners. Rather that release their prisoners as they hastened to retreat during the first week of the war, the Soviet secret police had simply slaughtered them. NKVD prisoner executions in the first week after Barbarossa totaled some ten thousand in the western Ukraine and more than nine thousand in Vinnitsa, eastward toward Kiev; comparable numbers of prisoners were executed in eastern Poland, Byelorussia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. These areas had already sustained losses numbering in the hundreds of thousands from the Stalinist purges of 1937-38. “It was not only the numbers of the executed,” historian Yury Boshyk writes of the evacuation murders, “but also the manner in which they died that shocked the populace. When the families of the arrested rushed to the prisons after the Soviet evacuation, they were aghast to find bodies so badly mutilated that many could not be identified. It was evident that many of the prisoners had been tortured before death; others were killed en masse.” In some cases, cells crowded with prisoners had been dynamited, badly mutilating the remains.” --Molobo 14:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I also nominate this article for deletion. It's a blemish on the credibility of the wiki foundation.

-G

Move?

During the RfD process it's been suggested that we moved this article to some better, more specific title. Indeed, the NKVD did massacre their prisoners in a variety of cases and not only in 1941 (Katyn in 1940, Soviet soldiers fighting for the Germans in 1945 and so on), so this page might indeed be turned into a disambiguation. However, what could be the best title to move this article to? Any ideas? //Halibutt 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• 1941 NKVD massacres of prisoners, NKVD massacres of prisoners during 1941, NKVD massacres of prisoners, 1941 ? Mieciu K 21:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• Or NKVD massacres of Polish prisoners (1941). A more specific name would be nice, I agree.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Nyah, I don't think we should make this article Poland-specific. After all the same slaughter was perpetrated on Jews, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Germans and other "Soviet people", be them Polish citizens or not. NKVD massacre of prisoners (1941) could be nice though. //Halibutt 07:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree with Halibutt, between June and December of 1941 not only Poles and former Polish citizens were killed by the NKVD. Mieciu K 09:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Agree, but in that case lets make this happen: please expand and list references to justify the usage of that name.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure. ATM I can't find more "non-Polish" massacres than the two already mentioned in the article, but someone has already reported the case to WP:RRNB and hopefully more people would come to do the job. //Halibutt 09:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer the article title to be corresponded to the content, thus, NKVD massacre of Polish prisoners or NKVD massacre of prisoners from Poland. I do not like NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1941 as we would needed NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1940, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1939, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1938, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1937, etc. Accodring to "Memorial" organization, they compile the list of 1mln50 thousand people executed by NKVD, most of them were executed in "massacre"-style fashion. It is a huge job to write the reasonable description of all the events, and it is not ready for now. Maybe we should start a wikiproject or something. The current article deals with Polish massacres and lets it be named accordingly abakharev 22:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

On one hand I wouldn't like to limit the scope of this article to Polish citizens only. After reading some of the comments by some of the ex-Soviet editors here in wiki I guess one could easily find the reason why. Also, as the list of the murdered are not known (and there is little chance they will be), we can't limit the scope to Poles only as there might've been other people killed there as well.

On the other hand however you are right that some date in the title would be helpful, especially if someone was willing to write articles on all the other mass purges, executions, and so on. As far as I know this was the only such large-scale massacre committed in so many places without exact lists prepared and mostly improvised. However, indeed many other mass executions were without even a staged trial and happened en masse. //Halibutt 23:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The current title is incorrect

Vinnitsa wasn't in Soviet occupied Poland but in Soviet controlled Ukraine. --Molobo 13:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Vitebsk and Minsk were not in Poland either. I moved the article back, let's see if the move discussion above (yes, Ghirlandajo, it's a hint) leads us somewhere. //Halibutt 15:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

But it is worth mentioning that many Poles lived there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.22.98.210 (talk) 11:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Title

I find the current title awkward. How about NKVD prisoner massacres? Appleseed (Talk) 18:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

How about removing POV terms like "massacre" from the title? What about "executions"? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it POV? We even have Category:Massacres. Appleseed (Talk) 17:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And while we are at it, why not move Katyn massacre to Katyn execution, Ghirla?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Support. Piotrus, please submit the WP:RM nomination and I will gladly give you my vote. --Irpen 18:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Bah, Irpen, you should not stop half-way - what about AfD?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

We got a little sidetracked here, so I made the move. I think it's an improvement. Appleseed (Talk) 17:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

NKVD prisoner massacres happend also in Romania/Moldova.--Tones benefit 20:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Why?

I'm unable to figure out from the article. What was the motive for the massacres? Jay (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I just read the links about the Soviet Union, Stalin and the NKVD, to find the cause of the massacres.

Soviet prisoners were not random people, only selected. That is the meaning of communism, and Stalinism in particular, that individuals irreformable, promising not to change beliefs and political views must exterminate. Possible to re-educate the person sent to labor camps. Moreover, in conditions of war, evacuation, together with prisoners is not always possible, and letting go free to their homes could potentially strengthen the enemy .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.22.98.210 (talk) 11:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The "Poland" section

In contrast to other sections, this section tells nothing about NKVD prisoners massacres. In addition, the massacres in former Polish cities (e.g. in Lwow) are already described in other sections. This section should be either removed as irrelevant, or some materials from Ukraine, Lithuania and Belasussia sections should be moved there.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Most of the massacres took place in what at that time was occupied Poland, so it is hardly irrelevant, but it's true that all the massacre sites on formerly Polish territory are now either in Lithuania, Belarus or Ukraine. I made some edits which hopefully make things clearer. - Ivanevian (talk) 16:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

German propaganda

The massacres were documented by German authorities and used in anti-Soviet and anti-Jewish propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 10:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC) http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml Xx236 (talk) 11:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

German propaganda does not change the fact that they are authentic Stalinist crimes documented in the Soviet archives. The Nazis, despite their intentions, were telling the truth about the crimes of the Soviet Union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.22.98.210 (talk) 11:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Article doesn't tell the whole story

The NKVD successfully evacuated more than 140,000 prisoners and allegedly killed more than 10,000.

The article contains:

"Not all prisoners were murdered; some of them were abandoned or managed to escape because the retreating, panicked Soviet executioners logistically could not kill all of them"

In fact, the vast majority of prisoners were safely evacuated eastwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.171.124 (talk) 08:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your input. You added one cited section which does indeed seem to run contrary to the some of the other cited material, and so the question apparently needs to be solved. However, you also removed to sections of clearly cited material, and that's not how things are supposed to be done. I undid these revisions. I'm not really interested in this subject so I'm not going to engage in this, but since it is a sensitive subject I so far undid your removals but let the section you added remain, even though this means the article now is contradictory. I encourage everyone to sort this out in a sensible way. Yakikaki (talk) 22:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Vinnitsa and Stalino (Donetsk)

The crimes took place probably before the war. More sources are needed.Xx236 (talk) 14:11, 4 November 2015 (UTC) A similar list [1]Xx236 (talk) 10:07, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Lviv during the war 1941.jpg (discussion)
• Victims of Soviet NKVD in Lvov, June 1941.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Lviv massacre & Pogrom connection

Is there any reason to state that the NKVD massacres 'culminated in the Lviv pogroms, which, from what I can tell, were conducted by the OUN and the Nazis, after they drove the Soviets from the City? If there is a historical reason for this connection, it should be clarified, otherwise I feel this section should be changed to state that the NKVD massacres immediately preceded the Lviv pogroms after the Nazis took control of the city. 76.82.237.1 (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, no. Someone who wrote a lot of these articles used to do that sort of thing, maybe to make their writing more dynamic? Thanks for pointing this out. I am reading the article and doing a light copyedit; if I see this is still there, I will change it to something less synth-ish like "was followed by" Elinruby (talk) 10:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

genealogy site used to cite massacres

apparently the same thing; leaving in case

References

Elinruby (talk) 11:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)