Talk:NK Maribor

Maribor did not play Champions League all those years. I think it was only one year. Listing all those years is very missleading. Please someone confirm and correct the article.

Ratipok (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK_Maribor#Matches ; I think that from this result table it's pretty clear when NK Maribor did played in the Champions League. No missleading there. Case closed.

WikiProject on Football

Hi, I've rated this article C-Class. One of the guidelines for an article attaining B-Class is the use of reference to verify the reliability of the material. Currently this article has no references but other than that it meets all the criteria for a B-Class article.

Well done to all the editors who have contributed to this article. I'll keep a watch on it and look forward to upgrading it to B-Class in the near future. DarthJoeyJoJo (talk) 20:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Seasons

Club seasons and European record look great, but should probably be split into separate articles. This is the usual practice and the article is becoming a bit unwieldy with all that information crammed into it. I've created the club template and a few club-related categories. Also, a list of managers might be a good addition. I haven't explored the subject in detail but this is what I've pieced together so far from other wiki articles:

• Bojan Prašnikar (1996–2000)
• Ivo Šušak (2000–2001)
• Bojan Prašnikar (2001–2002)
• Matjaž Kek (2000–2006)* (the article on Kek says he led the club from 2000 to 2006 although this may be incorrect)
• Darko Milanič (2008–present)

Here's a few suggestions:

• History section could use some subsections to divide it into periods, maybe the Yugoslav era (1960-1991) and modern Slovenia (1991-present).
• The section about the two rivalries with Mura and Olimpija should be shortened since there are separate articles which deal with them in more detail.
• Maybe the Honours section could list best European results and/or best Yugoslav era results?
• The part in the Players section detailing players wit most apps, various award winners and/or internationals could also be split into a separate article dedicated to player records.
• The Club Officials section does not need individual references per every person listed, especialy if the references all come from the club's official website.

Other than these minor issues the article looks great and seems to me it might be ready for a GA nomination soon.

Timbouctou (talk) 09:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions. Obviously there are plans for other articles about the club (List of NK Maribor seasons, NK Maribor in European competitions etc.), but I am currently working on the primary one. It already underwent a recent Peer review and soon it will be put on the GA nomination list. The same will then happened with History of NK Maribor and so on. Also, please don't shorten any of the current stuff in the article since the other articles aren't referenced and weren't recently updated like the main one. As I said, I was primarily working on the main article and didn't had the time to update the rest. I will do that, however, when this one will be completed. About the honours section, I don't agree that anything else then first or second place should be considered. That said I will probably add first and second places of the club in Yugoslav era (third and second division).Ratipok (talk) 01:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

As you wish. As for the minor fixes in this edit, keep in mind that the article lead usually opens with the article's title (which is NK Maribor) and exlanations of what it stands for and what it means in native language usually come afterwards. Also, clubs are either referred to in third person singular (e.g. "Maribor is/has" - which is more dominant in American English) or third person plural (e.g. "Maribor are/have" - which is more common in British English). You can choose either but the article should be consistent throughout. It is not necessary to use the lang template each time a Slovenian phrase is mentioned because once it has been established that we are talking about Slovenia the reader will assume that all other foreign phrases mentioned in brackets are Slovenian as well. As for Honours, the list oddly does not include the 2006 Intertoto Cup win. Also, there should be a good reason to call Lower Styria "Štajerska". If it has a name in English than that name should be used on English Wikipedia. Cheers. Timbouctou (talk) 16:58, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to use the English article if you decide to make NK Maribor article in your respective language

Lep pozdrav,Ratipok (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Lead lenght

The lead is too long. SLBedit (talk) 03:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi. That is your opinion, to which you are off course entitled to. This article follows good article criteria and is listed as Good Article. This means its quality is very high and the lead was pretty much the same when the article was assessed and approved for GA, by the Wikipedia Community. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 01:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Not correct, when the article was reviewed and listed, it looked like this LINK, as you can see the lead was almost 30% shorter than it is today 86.58.36.235 (talk) 19:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 03:40, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Merge

The article NK Maribor B should be merged here, as Maribor B clearly fails Notability criteria, since the club is not allowed to play higher then in 3rd division (fully amateur league), and is ineligible to compete in the domestic cup either 86.58.36.235 (talk) 10:16, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

No. You are way behind. The 3rd division limitation was lifted and no longer applies. NK Maribor B is a professional team that plays in a notable league. They are a different legal subject than NK Maribor. That's that from my part. You can always try to propose a merger and search for consensus. Good luck with that. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

No, Slovenian Third League is not "notable", on the notability criteria it reads "(or the national level of the league structure in countries where no cup exists)", and the national level in Slovenia is only 1st and 2nd division which are operated directly by the Football Association of Slovenia, while third league (and below) is divided into regional leagues which are operated by local football communities, and even if the association changed its rules and the reserve team could actually get promoted–well, they didnt get promoted, so they still play only in a non-notable league...and Maribor's youth team is "different legal subject" too then since the team is seperately registered as NŠ Maribor Branik, are you going to delete it from NK Maribor page since the two entries are "legally different"? This four or five sentences that could be written about NK Maribor B can be EASILY on NK Maribor page, just above "Youth Academy" section, no need for seperated page 86.58.36.235 (talk) 08:37, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the national cup DO exist in Slovenia of course, so this rule doesnt aplly, so it goes to "Teams that are not eligible for national cups must be shown to meet broader WP:N criteria"...how exactly does Maribor B meets general notability crietiera outside of football? 86.58.36.235 (talk) 08:52, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Stop with your POV all over the place. Slovenian Third League is notable as it meets the notability criteria. The rules for promotion changed during this off-season. By this time next year NK Maribor B, a fully professional team, will be a member of the Slovenian Second League, but that's not really important at the moment. I don't have time for this ping pong with you. The weather outside is too nice to be hanging around Wikipedia all the time. If you want to propose a merger and search for consensus you are free to do so. I will then provide the needed arguments against it. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Slovenian Third League is not notable and actually should not even have an article if the wikipedia policy would be followed strictly, according to notabiliy guide:
"–All leagues whose members are eligible for national cups are assumed notable" ---> 3rd division teams are NOT automatically eligible for the cup, only few out of 40+ teams qualify for the cup through regional tournament
"–All leagues that are a country's highest level are assumed notable" ---> Obviously not, since its 3rd, fully amateur division
"–All other leagues are assumed non-notable unless they can be shown to meet broader WP:N criteria".

So that automatically makes all teams in 3rd division non-notable, while the reasons why other teams do have articles are because they either; 1. played in the 1st division or 2nd division at one point in the history, or; 2. played at least one cup game in the last 25 years, since the slovenian football system was established, and Maribor B currently haven't played that...are you a crystal ball that you can predict the team will play in 2nd division next year? And the statement "By this time next year NK Maribor B, a fully professional team," is completely irrelevant since the notability criteria is NOT based on professional/semi-pro status of the club, but solely on the league they play/have played in 86.58.36.235 (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I would agree with the IP just about on the club's notability, they have not competed in a national competition. I'm not seeing a great deal of third party coverage beyond routine match reporting. Fenix down (talk) 12:39, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I am not arguing that the Slovenian Third League is notable based of my opinion but based on the Wikipedia's League notability criteria (i.e. All leagues whose members are eligible for national cups are assumed notable.). Members of the Slovenian Third Division can and do play in the national cup and usually the league's provide about a third of cup participants every season (currently only 28 teams participate in Slovenian Cup). Also, this certainly doesn't automatically make clubs in that division non-notable because different criteria's are applied to those. Also, you are arguing that " while the reasons why other teams do have articles are because they either; 1. played in the 1st division or 2nd division at one point in the history" while technically only the ten top division clubs from the previous season are qualified directly to the national cup in Slovenia. The rest has to qualify by other means, which includes members of the second division. Will you now go onto a rampage about the Slovenian Second League also not being notable, the same as Slovenian Third League? For example, the 3. Bundesliga only provides 4/20 teams for the German Cup. Their fourth tier Regionalliga's do not provide any club for the Cup directly, yet no one is arguing or insinuating those articles should be deleted. Are you going to delete them? And why are we even discussing about Slovenian Third League? Wikipedia literally has dozens of articles [1] about various football clubs reserve teams and they seem to meet the criteria and not bother you. Most of them are ineligible to play in both the country's top division and the national cup and have never done it. What makes NK Maribor B ineligible or not notable enough to have an own article, while there seems to be no problem with FC Porto B, TSG 1899 Hoffenheim II or Southampton F.C. Under-23s, just to name a few? NK Maribor B meets the sport specific criteriaWP:NSPORT and several primary criteria's of notability of organizations and companies and teams, such as WP:ORGDEPTH, WP:AUD or WP:ORGIND. There are plenty of primary and secondary sources that deal with NK Maribor B ranging from regional [2], [3] or national [4], [5], [6] and sometimes also international [7], [8], [9], [10]. And there is really no point into replying to this message since you certainly wont convince me otherwise and you know it. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 02:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

FC Porto B plays in the second division of portugal (national league), so it is easily notable. In Germany, 3. Bundesliga is a national-level league (regionalliga is not), while Slovenian 3rd division is not. And you said that the 3rd divison teams COULD qualify for the cup through regional torunaments–well, even 6th division teams COULD qualify for the cup this way as they play in the regional tournament too, so is then 6th division and all their teams notable based on that? And the links you provided (1, 2) are nothing more then routine match report, this link is a livescore for betting purposes and not reliable, and those english articles about car accident are completely irrelevant since they talk about the players and the accident, not about the team, its only mentionted that they are the members of the maribor's reserve team. And you said "Will you now go onto a rampage about the Slovenian Second League also not being notable, the same as Slovenian Third League?"; you are compeltly missing the point here, the league (and all teams that play in it, of course) is notable because it is a NATIONAL level league, cup participants are not important in this case. 86.58.36.235 (talk) 09:59, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

So Portuguese Second League, and all clubs within it, is notable because it is a national level league? German Third League, and all clubs within it, is notable because it is a national level league? Regards, Ratipok (talk) 13:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, according to WP notability criteria, and unlike slovenian second and third divisions, all portuguese second division teams compete in Taça de Portugal anyway, so the league notability is not important at all since the teams would meet notability criteria because of they cup appearances...now don't ask me why are reserve german teams in 4th division (regional liga) notable since they are also ineligible for the cup, well you can propose to merge them and im sure it will pass, so the reason "unless all other reserve teams gets their pages deleted, this one will also stay" is not really reasonable, and you cant really compare german and english reserve teams with maribor b team, with all respect but these teams are playing for way longer then 2 seasons and are also more media-covered 86.58.36.235 (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

That is not true. There are at least five teams currently in the Portuguese Second League that are ineligible for the top division and the national cup. Maybe more, but I just browsed through the list quickly. 16 teams out of 20 are ineligible for the national cup through the 3. Bundesliga in Germany (at least two of them are ineligible to promote to 2. Bundesliga). Slovenian Third League is one of three (next to second and top division) that is organized and governed nationally by the Football Association of Slovenia [11], [12]. Something you have claimed as untrue in previous comments. Slovenian Third League clubs constitute 40% of teams in this year's 2016–17 Slovenian Football Cup. In fact, there are more third division clubs in the Cup this season than the ones from the top division (and almost three times as much than from the second division). The second part of your post is just POV but I will try to answer. You are insinuating that teams like FC Porto B are notable because they play in a notable league where all teams are eligible for the national cup (not true) and because they are playing way longer than two seasons (Porto B was founded in 2012 so I assume four years makes them notable enough) and are more media-covered (highly unlikely that Porto B is more media-covered by Portuguese football portals than Maribor B is by Slovenian). I don't care if you think Maribor B can not be compared to reserve teams from other countries. This is Wikipedia and neutrality should be applied. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I was talking about german and english teams, not about Porto B, and again Portugese 2nd division teams are notable since the segunda league is a national-level. And the Slovenian Third League is not DIRECTLY operated by Footabll Association of Slovenia (NZS), but from local football communities (MNZ Maribor, MNZ Nova Gorica, MNZ Kranj...); even if the league will be operated directly by NZS this year (I doubt), the league is still not national-level since the league is divided into 4 sub-leagues based on geographic location of the club (North, East, West, Centre). Yes, 40% of the teams in Slovenian Cup this season are 3rd divison teams, but so? They qualified through regional tournament and not through the league, so in theory even more than 50% teams in the cup could be 3rd division teams, while on the other hand, it could also be 0% if 4th/5th division teams would have won the regional torunament, while in the 3. German Liga, the top 4 teams are ASSURED for a place in the cup, while slovenian 3rd divison teams are not. 86.58.36.235 (talk) 09:00, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Slovenian Third League is governed and organized by the Football Association of Slovenia [13], [14] and clubs of the Slovenian Third League are subject to Football Association of Slovenia licensing [15]. In fact, the Football Association of Slovenia is specifically using the term "a national level" (nacionalni nivo) league for the top three divisions [16]. Referees for the top, second and third division in Slovenia are required to obtain an A license (A-1 for assistant referees) [17]. Thus far the Slovenian Third Division was a two level competition. On the first level teams were divided into four groups, while on the second level the competition unifies into one. Division within the Slovenian Third League is similar or closely resembles to multiple other countries on the same level (e.g Italy, Portugal, Russia, Spain). A lot of those leagues have participants that are ineligible for promotion into the country's top division or directly to the national cup. So according to your understanding of Wikipedia rules all clubs participating in a notable league are notable enough to have their own article. Slovenian Third League is notable. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 16:12, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, even if the third league is notable (that could still be debatable, since the league has 0 assured places in the cup), Maribor B is an exception here, because according to the rules, if the team is ineligible for the cup, it has to meet broader notability criteria. So, basically:

• Team playing in 2nd slovenian division and is eligible for competing in the cup, even if the team does not qualify for it, IS notable...or maybe not, but all 2nd division teams were capped in the cup, so it doesnt matter anyway.
  
• Team playing in 3rd slovenian division and is eligible for competing in the cup, even if the team does not qualify for it, IS still notable as long as it has at least one appearance in the cup between 1991–2016
  
• Team playing in 2nd OR 3rd slovenian division, and is INELIGIBLE for competing in the cup (Maribor B), IS NOT notable if they dont meet broader notabiltiy criteria outside of football, regardless of league's notabilty (unless they would play in 1st league, but thats impossible unless Maribor's main team gets relegated)
  
• A team, which never played in 1st division and never played a single game in the slovenian cup, IS NOT notable, even if they play in 2nd division
  
• A team, which played only one cup game in 25 years, and they never played higher than 5th division, IS still notable
  

This is how I undestrand those rules, so Maribor B pretty much fails notability criteria...whole story in short: Ineligible for competing in cup, never played in 1st division, not passing the broader notability criteria = not notable...you see, in england, even some super unknown teams from a village with a population of 100 probably played in the fa cup, in the first prelimianry round, since this competition has "millions" of rounds, and that would make a team notable even if they play in the 12th division, but in slovenia this is not a case since only 28 teams compete in a cup 86.58.36.235 (talk) 17:40, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

You are changing or dismissing your own arguments faster than I am able to respond to them. On a FC Porto B example you have said they are "easily notable" since they play in a national level league. Now you are slowly acknowledging that maybe NK Maribor B does the same. Both teams have a tradition spanning a few years (Porto B since 2012 and Maribor B since 2014), both are eligible to play in any league, with the exception of the top division, and both are ineligible to play in the national cup. Why are you stipulating that Porto B is "easily notable", while you are arguing that Maribor B is not? I have wrote previously in this topic about what notability criteria Maribor B meets, in my opinion, so there is no reason to post a duplicate comment in that regard. Also, a "broader notability" does not mean someone has to write about politics or economy etc. in regards with a sports club topic. And please stop with the CAPS LOCK since I can read and understand perfectly well. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 00:23, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Because I totally forgot about "or the national level of the league structure in countries where no cup exists", so this doesnt apply neither to Porto B neither to Maribor B since cup exists in both countries. So no, neither Porto B neither Maribor B meets notability criteria in this case, but Porto could meet broader notability criteria while Maribor B definitely dont...and we are discussing Maribor here, so Porto and other couple of teams are not really important here, you can propose a merger at Talk:FC Porto...however, if you rename Maribor B to something like Chelsea F.C. Reserves and Academy and cover both youth selections and B team in the same article, that would meet the criteria since Maribor academy played in the youth champions league 86.58.36.235 (talk) 08:30, 9 August 2016 (UTC)