Talk:NaDa

Untitled

Is he enough notable? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 12:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Lee Yun Yeol is one of the most popular Starcraft players and has been on the scene for many years now. He is on the same level as those like Lim Yo Hwan. --Must WIN 01:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Notability

The notability guidelines that Lee Yun-Yeol meets for his StarCraft career:

• People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]

  He is paid a salary over $225,000 US yearly to play StarCraft, not withstanding sponsorships and tournament winnings. This is already stated in the article. Since he already meets the notability criteria on that count, the other points are academic exposition. But for completeness sake we will continue.

• Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television, stage performances, or other productions.

  Winner of multiple nationally-televised e-sports events especially between 2003 and 2005.

• Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.

  His celebrity has led to him modeling a line of clothing sold in South Korea.

• Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.

  See above. Also some of his theoretical contributions to StarCraft are explained in the article.

I know it might seem unbelievable that someone could become notable for playing video games, but Lee is a cultural icon in Korea due to his prolific achievements and his status as an e-sports superstar has made him a household name comparable to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan in that country. If he does not meet the notability criteria, hardly anybody would.

⟳ausa کui ^× 20:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lee may have done all of this and more. However, the article is sourced to one primary source [1] (which does absolutely nothing to establish notability and a blog copy of a presumably reliable source that tells us all of the following "His name is Lee Yunyeol, or in game [RED]NaDa Terran. He is The Champion. Last year his reported earnings were around $200,000. He plays a seven year-old RTS for fame and fortune and to many Koreans he is an idol."

In one edit summary, we are told that he is "a celebrity comparable to Michael Jordan in South Korea".[2] This may be true, but the sources certainly do not demonstrate that. For comparison, I offer Michael_Jordan#References: 147 references including The New York Times, Forbes, Journal of Advertising, and dozens of other clearly reliable sources. Compare this to Lee's refs: his bio page from a team he is on and a blog copy of a Wired article that tells us very little. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the article definitely needs more sourcing. It is somewhat difficult, since he is a superstar in South Korea in a field that has very little interest outside of that country, so there aren't many sources in English. I suspect that if I spoke Korean I could find you 150 sources pretty easily, but I don't. :-( What do you think about this one?. It's unfortunate that I can't find this text on the PC Gamer UK website, but it seems reliable to me. I'm not sure I would say it tells us "very little" either. I read it, and it seems to tell us quite a bit. I'm not sure what to make of your objection to it. ⟳ausa کui ^× 17:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

For one thing, it would certainly be better if we cited the original article, rather than saying we're citing the original when we're citing a blog copy of it. As to how much it tells us, imagine if our article said only what that one says, "His name is Lee Yunyeol, or in game [RED]NaDa Terran. He is The Champion. Last year his reported earnings were around $200,000. He plays a seven year-old RTS for fame and fortune and to many Koreans he is an idol." That's not much for a biography. In any event, we need more sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that if it only said that, it would be a bit shorter, though not much shorter. I think part of my confusion is that I'm not sure what exactly your objection is about. If your objection is that we need more sources to expand the article, I am with you 100%. But that didn't seem to be your objection in the beginning. I took you to be objecting, based on your PROD tag summary and the addition of the template, that he didn't meet the notability guideline. The PC Gamer UK article demonstrates that he does meet the notability guideline as a salaried sports competitor and entertainer. If this is a debate about whether the article is good, you and I should both agree that it is not, and that it could use quite a bit of work and expansion, with the help of whatever meager sources we can find. But if the debate is about whether the article should be deleted because the subject is not notable enough, then we do have something to debate about. ⟳ausa کui ^× 21:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we're looking at two different articles. If it "only said that", it would be substantially shorter, leaving out: "He is known for his excellent micromanagement, and his innovative strategies leading to his nickname, "Genius Terran". He achieved the highest KeSPA score of any player before it was re-scaled.[citation needed] He has been on the teams IS, KTF and now WeMade FOX, formerly known as Pantech EX and Toona SG. He is the first of two players to ever win 3 OSLs and therefore win the Golden Mouse. In 2007, NaDa signed a new 3 year contract with WeMade FOX for approximately $830,000 USD." Also gone? The "Major achievements" section.

You say he is "a salaried sports competitor and entertainer". The only independent source in the article says no such thing, only that his earnings last year were around $200,000. That is not a "salary".

That said, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to establish that Lee meets this or that guideline, I'm much more focused on a content standard/core policy, "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." We have one reliable source in the article. It is currently improperly cited to a blog copy of the article. If he's comparable to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan, we can surely find at least a couple of reliable sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

He is comparable to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan.... in South Korea. Hence 99% of the reliable sources about him are written in Hangul. I know some people who can read Hangul, and I'm sure they could find you an avalanche of newsprint media about him, but since there is so little interest outside of South Korea about professional StarCraft, there are very few reliable sources written in English about individual gamers. There have been a few sources about the wild popularity of StarCraft in general, such as [3] this one, which includes an interview with Kang Min, but not Lee Yun Yeol. (I'd recommend that you take a look at it, since it might impress upon you what an incredibly huge deal StarCraft is both culturally and economically in that country. this is pretty good too; a National Geographic documentary about Seo Ji Hoon, who curiously enough, doesn't have an article here.)

I understand that the purpose of the verifiability standard is to keep out a topic that hasn't been the subject of third-party coverage or research. I am getting the feeling that your intuition is to say, "Well, if there really aren't any reliable sources on him, then he must not be that big a deal to merit having an article." I understand that, really, and I understand that that is part of the spirit behind the verifiability policy. I can't reconcile that, though, with my strong conviction that I have to make an exception to that rule here, because I know the subject is so unambiguously notable that given enough time, I should be able to dig up some more sources. ⟳ausa کui ^× 15:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

At this point, I feel it would be far more productive to stop talking about the sources you are sure you can find and start finding them instead. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it will be easier for me to relax and work on improving the article when I'm sure I'm not in danger of having all my work deleted. :-P That's why I'm arguing for notability at this point. ⟳ausa کui ^× 16:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Since his notability seems to hinge on the availability of reliable sources, your approach (below) seems like a good way to go. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Possible sources for inclusion

I'll drop candidates in here. ⟳ausa کui ^× 18:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• Fnatic.com interview with NaDa

Looks to be a blog entry by "Elroy Pinto - Registered User". Not a reliable source. (Incidentally, rather odd that his favorite players are "Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods..." and you specifically compared his notability to same...) - SummerPhD (talk) 17:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe it's subliminal. At any rate, this is not a blog post, but an online publication by an e-sports news website. Not as good as Bloomberg, but I think it counts. ⟳ausa کui ^× 18:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It's signed by a "registered user". I meant to say "forum posting", but the idea is the same. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Right. That has to do with the way these websites are set up. Some non-paid staff (read: people who like the website) can also register accounts and contribute content, but that is moderated. The author of this piece is a paid staff member and manager for the e-sports team this website was set up around. You can see more about that lower down on the profile. All content posted on this site will be posted by "Registered users" since that's what the software calls them. ⟳ausa کui ^× 20:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

How about this from Reuters? Not exactly deep coverage, but it's a start. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Bloomberg gives his 600 million won contract and the size of his fan club. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

These are both excellent, and I'll see about getting them into the article. The first one could round out Lim Yo Hwan too, if it's not already there. ⟳ausa کui ^× 20:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• http://www.ftd.de/karriere_management/business_english/:Business%20English%20Limbering%20Korean/260015.html
• http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22427937-36375,00.html
• http://moreresults.factiva.com/results/index/index.aspx?ref=JOONAI0020061220e2ck0000c
• http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-117406916.html
• http://www.yeskisti.net/yesKISTI/InfoSearch/ReadDB03.jsp?CNO=KOR1020060085991 -- Looks like a patent application, probably not the same person

Requested move 15 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 05:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

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NaDa (video gamer) → Lee Yun-yeol – He is well known as real name now. Kanghuitari (talk) 04:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support more encyclopaedic. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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