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This article is in the exact same case as the article Bobby, a diminutive for a given name that is also used to name other things apart from people. In the case of Bobby, the main article contains article while Bobby (disambiguation) is redirected to the main article. In the case of Nacho, Nacho is straight redirected to Nachos (the food). I proposed (also commented in Talk:Nacho) to restructure this to follow the de facto standard for Bobby and many other similar cases, like Harry, or Larry or other given names. I will give some space to discussion and if no one opposes I will perform the operation in a couple of days. Lironcareto (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- There is no such de facto standard for personal names. The standard is that if there is a primary topic, then the base name is either an article on the topic or a redirect to an article with an alternate name for the topic. If there is no primary topic, the disambiguation page is at the base name. Under no circumstances should you cut and paste content from Nacho (disambiguation) to Nacho. If you think the pages should be moved, please follow instructions at WP:RM to start discussion and establish consensus. older ≠ wiser 11:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- I oppose this move for the reasons given at Talk:Nacho. Nachos is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I moved the newly created given name page to Nacho (given name).Polyamorph (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 1 August 2024
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: page moved. On 15 August 2019 Polyamorph boldly moved Nacho to Nacho (given name), asserting that "Nachos is the primary topic". However, there is no consensus for that, and several pages have links requiring disabiguation, including Joey Montana, Vacca (rapper), Killing Me Inside, 2017–18 Getafe CF season, Yandel discography, and Latin American Music Awards of 2018. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Nacho (disambiguation) → Nacho – no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Nacho" per page views at [1] Joeykai (talk) 07:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. Nachos is still the clear primary redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Weak support the food has 57,270 views but the 1990 footballer has 560,595. The food is likely primary by long-term significance but clearly not by usage so a DAB may be best. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, Nachos is a justified primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nachos were apparently named after a person named Nacho, and it's generally known that Nacho is a given name, and there's numerous people named like that that garner significant reader interest: all-time mass views of all topics named Nacho and mass views of all people named Nacho.
- If we look at the traffic pattern for the redirect Nacho and the disambiguation page, all-time monthly views of these two, there's brief spikes that distort it, even in the logarithmic view. So if we look at the situation since the last spike like this, with the logarithmic view we can compare the pattern with the plural - there's times when it matches one and there's times when it matches the other. This also indicates there is no primary topic by usage.
- What is the long-term significance argument for pointing the singular to the plural, is the significance of the dish larger than the significance of all these people to the extent that it overrides the other significant singular usage? Seems very much doubtful.
- Unless an actual argument to the contrary is made, we should proceed with the move, format a common section at the top, and then measure the traffic patterns again after a while to see how it went. (Support) --Joy (talk) 09:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- It might also be worth noting how we can remove the plural from the last graph I linked above - like this - so we can compare the traffic at the redirect and the hatnote destination - and they are very similar.
- This could indicate that a relatively large contingent of readers looking up this term has to click the hatnote, consistently.
- The total traffic at the disambiguation page could be impacted by incoming redirects, but only some of them seem plausible as random reader lookups.
- We can also have a look at the clickstreams for that:
snapshot of recent clickstreams from Nachos to Nacho topics
From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:
- May '24 (385 views of the "Nacho" redirect), clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:
- #1 Nachos Ignacio_Anaya link 999
- #8 Nachos Nacho_(disambiguation) link 128 (possibly ~33.3% of redirect traffic)
- #23 Nachos Nacho_(footballer,_born_1990) other 36 (possibly ~9.4% of redirect traffic)
- total: 5138 to 56 identified destinations
- June '24 (589), clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:
- #1 Nachos Ignacio_Anaya link 1174
- #6 Nachos Nacho_(disambiguation) link 232 (~39.4%)
- #13 Nachos Nacho_(footballer,_born_1990) other 71 (~12%)
- total: 5425 to 54 identified destinations
- July '24 (571), clickstream-enwiki-2024-07.tsv:
- #1 Nachos Ignacio_Anaya link 1488
- #6 Nachos Nacho_(disambiguation) link 179 (~31.3%)
- #13 Nachos Nacho_(footballer,_born_1990) other 32 (~5.6%)
- total: 5956 to 58 identified destinations
- So the eponym is the most clicked item, but that's not necessarily indicative as that person is inherently connected to the presumed primary topic anyway.
- The hatnote is consistently high in the top list of outgoing links, which is suspect. If its clicks mainly come from redirect views, we can estimate at least a third of those viewers are not navigated correctly.
- The fact that we consistently see a volume of readers who arrive here and then have to use another way to manually navigate to the footballer (there is no link, the clickstream is marked other) - is an apparent failure of navigation. More likely than not, there's also more people like that, who just give up in frustration, but we don't see them in these stats (which do show them to be another substantial chunk of redirect traffic).
- --Joy (talk) 20:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject Food and drink, WikiProject Television, WikiProject Football, and WikiProject Mexico have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't think renaming Nachos is necessary. It is fine as it is. Waqar💬 18:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Iwaqarhashmi this is not a proposal to move Nachos. The proposal is only about singular "Nacho". --Joy (talk) 10:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose You loose the ability for people to find certain topics, biographies, this is a perfect case of where and what a disambiguation page is. Govvy (talk) 09:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Govvy this is not a proposal to remove disambiguation, rather it's the reverse. The proposal is to make it so that whoever types in just "nacho" into the searchbox sees all those topics, so they don't have to click the hatnote on the Nachos article. I gather you then actually support this? --Joy (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
OpposeNeutral, per advocacy by Joy, and will watch the discussion, the food item is clear primary per long-term significance and worldwide understanding of the term. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)- @Randy Kryn how do you gauge worldwide understanding of the term like that? If you ask a typical British or an Australian encyclopedia reader if "Nacho" refers to food or a given name or both, do you think many people would only say food? How would we measure this?
- I was thinking maybe we can have a look at Google Books Ngrams for combinations of the words nacho, Nacho, Nachos, nachos and most common adjoning words for the singular. Mentions in written works should be a reasonable approximation of average encyclopedia reader interest...?
- Looking at those graphs, there seems to be some general correlation between nacho and Nacho references, and use of the lowercase word in compound nouns (esp. nacho cheese recently). At the same time, there's also a lot of indication of ambiguity, such as the distinctly different pattern of spikes of the plural and the singular. Likewise for the different patterns for terms like Nacho's or people like Galindo. The latter reinforces the idea that the uppercase singular references are often to people, not to the food.
- Based on this, it seems more likely than not that the average reader would recognize the uppercase singular as distinct from the rest.
- We can't distinguish uppercase and lowercase singular in Mediawiki, however, so handling that navigation issue with a disambiguation list is the next best thing. --Joy (talk) 18:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Joy. Changed to 'neutral' for now and will watch this discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support for reasons stated by Joy. – robertsky (talk) 04:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Comment I have only learned of this move via the ping in the closing statement. Back in 2019, the footballer born in 1990 was not receiving as many pageviews. Nachos did seem to be the primary topic by pageviews at the time. That seems to have changed now. Polyamorph (talk) 18:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Polyamorph: sorry about that. I know from experience the feeling of not being notified about discussions like this. While editors don't want to be burdened with the obligation of posting notices to individual editor's talk pages, I'll consider making my bot RMCD bot add notices about this type of RM to the talk pages of previous page movers, such as you. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
post-move
editIn the first full month after the disambiguation, September '24, WikiNav for Nacho showed a total of 538 incoming views - which is really 690 together with redirects (monthly page views). There were 491 identified outgoing clickstreams: 235 to nachos, 64 to Anaya, and 9 more topics down to one with 11 clickstreams, so we obviously hit the anonymization threshold - and then there were another 84 filtered ones. WikiNav renders the previously presumed primary topic at 47.86%, and it's the biggest single data point.
So it got somewhere around these percentages of readers:
- 235 / 690 = ~34% - if none of its source-destination pairs were anonymized at all - compared to total incoming
- 235 / 538 = ~43% - ditto for anonymization - compared to traffic without redirects
- 235 / (491+84) = 235 / 575 = ~41% - ditto for anonymization - compared to grand total outgoing clickstreams
Now, if we were more generous, we'd assume the same distribution in the filtered portion, and which is (84 * 0.4786) =~ 40. Then these ratios would be:
- 275 / 690 = ~40%
- 275 / 538 = ~51%
- 275 / 575 = ~49%
We could technically be even more generous and assume that a larger part of the filtered clickstreams went to nachos, but that just seems less likely, it would assume less of a long tail while we already see strong sings of one.
Luckily the October numbers are already in the meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream archive files, so we can see the followup as well:
- total incoming views 429, with redirects 576
- clickstream-enwiki-2024-10.tsv:
- other-empty Nacho external 124
- Nachos Nacho link 88
- other-internal Nacho external 65
- other-search Nacho external 60
- Nacho_(footballer,_born_1990) Nacho link 43
- Main_Page Nacho other 31
- total: 411 from 6 identified sources
- Nacho Nachos link 184
- Nacho Ignacio_Anaya link 58
- Nacho Nacho_(footballer,_born_1990) link 40
- Nacho Nacho_(given_name) link 37
- Nacho Nacho_(2023_TV_series) link 21
- Nacho Nacho_(footballer,_born_1993) link 16
- Nacho Nacho_(footballer,_born_1989) link 16
- Nacho Nacho_(singer) link 15
- Nacho Nacho_Varga link 10
- Nacho Nacho_(footballer,_born_1980) link 10
- total: 407 to 10 identified destinations
So the known outgoing ratio is 184/407 = ~45% numbers, but I don't know where to read the number of filtered clickstreams for October. Without that we can only estimate these:
- 184 / 576 = ~32% - if none of its source-destination pairs were anonymized at all - compared to total incoming
- 184 / 429 = ~43% - ditto for anonymization - compared to traffic without redirects
I'm also unsure why there's still a hatnote on top of nachos, though it consistently gets some clicks (89 in September, 88 in October). Incoming redirects indicates perhaps it's about "Nacho's"? Maybe it's best we disambiguate that, as it could plausibly be both an intricate typo for the plural as well as the result of someone looking up a posessive form.