Talk:Nadar (caste)/Archive 6

Archive 1

←

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

samuel Sargunar cannot be quoted since he is a nadar himself

https://books.google.com/books?id=OcEM2IsnA1AC&pg=PA153&dq=samuel+sargunar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj16qL_3cPUAhUKwWMKHYjBAx0Q6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=samuel%20sargunar&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC&pg=PA82&dq=samuel+sargunar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj16qL_3cPUAhUKwWMKHYjBAx0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=samuel%20sargunar&f=false

Samuel sargunar is a nadar, we cannot quote a nadars fake claim.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Banagoth (talk • contribs) 01:36, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Not everything in that para comes from sargunar. More ever all this is just a theory. Not a fact. And theories written by anthropologists like Hardgrave can be included. The para also uses terms like 'dogma' to describe the movement. Mayan302 (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

The para needs to be changed slightly.. it is not according to the source. Sargunar's argument was actually based on another Nadar historian. And this person was trying to link the nadars with the pandyas,(not cheras and cholas). Will be back.

The terms cheras and cholas actually comes from the Tuticorin gazette. It also considers these as claims. Nevertheless it is not a highly reliable source so I ll remove these terms from the para. The only reason why the name Sargunar's is mentioned in the para, is because this claim eventually became the dogma of the community in the 19th century. Nothing more. Nothing less.

"samuel Sargunar cannot be quoted since he is a nadar himself" Isn't this a statement of prejudice? Why there is no reference to Tirunelveli Chanar by Robert Caldwell? May be he too a Nadar for wikipedians! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.216.121.198 (talk) 05:26, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I think you are confusing hardgrave with sargunar again. Caldwell was a Christian missionary. Not an anthropologist. You can't use low quality sources here. There are also low quality materials that glorify this community. We cant use them too. If my guess is right you are using anon ips to remove refs appended to this article.Your activities are identical to someone who previously used to bother this article. Please don't edit caste articles with this kind of attitude.Mayan302 (talk) 18:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Mayan, you are overly imaginative. I never edited or removed anything in the article. I am just pointing out the prejudice. "Caldwell was a Christian missionary" So he can't be trusted, right?

Distribution

We appear to have a major discrepancy regarding population distribution, with the opening paragraph of the lead section saying one thing and the infobox saying many more things. I'm not even sure that we have a source for those claims. - Sitush (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Long time :). Hope you are doing well. The infobox section was edited by other editors. So I don't know. The opening para is supported by refs.(A newspaper article and hardgrave). I will look into it when I find time. Thank you Mayan302 (talk) 09:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Mayan302 for Population you should quote census. Even the news paper article not refers who said that and which census they are 12%.--Tenkasi Subramanian (talk)

I don't see any reason why a national newspaper would side with a Tamil community. Newspaper people sometimes may or may not reveal their source. As you said, we can't always rely on newspaper articles. If you can prove that this is a dubious estimate, you can very well remove it. Or you could ask an admin to settle this for you. Cheers..Mayan302 (talk) 17:16, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Immanuel

User Eby2018 is consistently replacing the contents of the page, that are supported by valid scholarly references, with low-quality material. He is using the book Dravidian Lineages by Immanuel(a book written by a local Nadar author) as reference. I ask the admins look into this and revert the edits of Eby2018. Thank you.Mayan302 (talk) 07:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The Nalavars

Hi Mayan302. Here I will list up the quotations prooving the Nalavars of Sri Lanka are related to the Nadars, or at least according to their (the Nalavar's) mythology and also according to most scholars.

"The Nalavar are the Deventera caste, called Nambi in India. ... Landing at Manār, the closest landing place from India, they sought shelter in a village of tree-climbers called Cantar... The Cantar agreed, and the Nampi began to climb trees for coconuts and toddy, repair fences, and do agricultural labor. ... the Cantar replied that the Nampi were kinsmen. The Nambi eventually married Cantar women." David, Kenneth. The New Wind: Changing Identities in South Asia. De Gruyter. p. 190-191.

According to your claim is this not relevant because Cantor or Shandrar are not relevant to the Shanars (Nadars). I have sources backing that up,

"In this context let me make a passing allusion to another community group called Shandar, spreading on either side of the Palk Straits. It constitutes a socio-economic factor of some consequence of Jaffna and, to a less degree, in Puttalam. The group, better known on the Indian side as the Shanar, is a major factor in the population..." Mukherjee, Mandira. "Encyclopaedia of Asian Culture and Society: India, Sri Lanka. South Asia, Volum 2". Anmol publications. p. 244.

Another supporting source,

"It is important to note that the Shanar, or Nalavar as they later evolved, were postulation an independent migration and settlement in Jaffna. It is important to note that the Shanar, or Nalavar as they later evolved, were postulation an independent migration and settlement in Jaffna." Arasaratnam, Sinnappah. Ceylon and the Dutch, 1600-1800: External Influences and Internal Change in Early Modern Sri Lanka. Variorum Collected Studies. p. 381.

For your other claims, both my sources: are not "low quality sources" or "not valid refs" but are high quality academic sources with valid references. Kindly see through the sources and please undo your revert. I will leave it for two days before undoing your revert. I hope we can come to consensus. Xenani (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I still can't agree with you on the 'Cantar' part. You are using two different sources to corroborate your claim that the Cantar and Shanar are the same. There's also a community called Channar in Kerala. It's an Ezhava surname. Channars and Shanars were both relevant to the toddy occupation. However the Channars of Kerela and Shanars of TamilNad are not the same caste. Even though they both use a similar surname, they are not the same. So you can't relate two different communities from two different countries just because they share the same caste name. You need a ref which clearly states that the TamilNad Nadars intermarried with the Nalavars of Srilanka. You also claim that this is something mythical. We can add this,if this is also the mythical origin story of the Nadars. However it's not. This is not a page about a Srilankan community. This is a page about a Tamil community from India. Srilankan Tamils and Indian Tamils may both speak a similar language. But they're still two very different communities. Hence the evidence you have so far provided is not clear enough. I hope you understand. Add a valid ref, that supports your claim properly. Using multiple irrelevant sources to support something will not be encouraged by wiki. Remember there's a country between these two communities. Revert after adding a clear ref. Mayan302 (talk) 02:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Mayan302. This source clearly says that they are both the same group with different name. Further does my other source also clearly say that the Nalavar evolved from the Shanars. I don't see the relevance in comparing the Channars in this, because the Nalavars clearly claim origin from the Shanars and the scholars I cited also agree. My references are valid.

"You need a ref which clearly states that the TamilNad Nadars intermarried with the Nalavars of Srilanka."

The lead of the article,

"Nadar (also referred to as Nadan, Shanar and Shanan) is a Tamil caste of South India and Sri Lanka. "

Does include the Nadars or Shanars from Sri Lanka also, hence the article is not only about the Shanars of Tamil Nadu but also them from Sri Lanka. My content was also only added to the Sri Lanka section and one line under History section under where it mentions the Nadars migrating to Sri Lanka. Anyway does my sources clearly state that the Nalavars claim origin from Shanars, do I strongly mean that you should undo your revert. I can also add the additional sources from here on the article. Xenani (talk) 21:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

You don't understand what I am trying to say. Now you are claiming that they are the same group. The refs you have provided are once again vague and unclear. Yes, the article does take into consideration of the Nadars who migrated to Srilanka. The refs you have provided,are they actually speaking about the Nadars FROM TamilNad or are they talking about a different Srilankan community. The term 'Shanar' alone is not adequate enough to confirm this. And moreover the refs you have provided are most probably based on Robert Caldwell's theory. He was the only person who tried to link the Nadars with Srilanka(he also tried to connect them with the nalavars) We can't possibly consider that as an evidence becaus he was a Christian missionary and obviously didn't use anthropological methodologies. You're once again Wikipedia:Cherrypicking refs and trying to add something vague and unclear. If they are the same group why do they have completely different cultures. I can go on like this and ask many questions. The refs you just added are once again low quality and obscure. Find a good anthropological work which confirms your theory. You will most probably not find it. This Nadar Srilankan theory is most probably Caldwell's and we can't use thatMayan302 (talk) 02:10, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't follow you quite. The refs I put in the article are talking about the Shanars from Sri Lanka, which I guess shouldn't create any problem as the lead of the article itself says the group is found in South India and Sri Lanka. Also my other supporting sources on this talk page supports that Nalavars evolved from Shanars (which is not my claim or theory as you claimed), and that Shanars of Tamil Nadu and the Shanars also known as Shandars of Sri Lanka are the same group. Not sure why it is relevant to speak about Robert Caldwell (who is not only a Christian missionary, but also a reputed linguist) since me nor my source mentions him or his theory. Maybe we need a third opinion, which I will ask for at WP:3. Xenani (talk) 20:39, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Robert Caldwell lived hundred years ago. He is a linguist, not an anthropologist. His Srilankan origin theory was debunked by Robert Hardgrave, one of the foremost Nadar anthropologists(refer:Hardgrave 20-21). I was slightly wrong yesterday. Caldwell tried to link the Nadars with a Srilanka community called Shandrar, and Hardgrave debunks this theory. My question is simple. Are the refs provided by xenani talking about the Nadars/Shanars of TamilNad or are they talking about an entirely different Srilanka caste. This is not mentioned clearly in any of his refs. If you are actually from TamilNad, it's actually a no brainer. We have never heard of the Nalavars. But Mr.Xenani insists they are the same group. He is Wikipedia:Cherrypicking the refs to add something vague and unclear.The term 'Shanar' alone is not adequate enough to confirm this(people change their caste names often. Shanars changed their caste name to Nadar. Pallis became Vanniyars. Idayans became Konars etc).We need a better ref that would shed more light on this issue and then if needed we can add it to the article. The refs he has so far provided are vague and unclear. I will be back. Cheers!Mayan302 (talk) 02:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Mayan302. Thank you for the source. Although, Robert Caldwell's theory is irrelevant because neither I nor my sources mentions him, your source does only mention that the Shanars of Tamil Nadu do not descend from the Shandors of Sri Lanka. The source does not explicit say they are two different communities but only debunks Caldwell's theory that the Shanars originate from Sri Lanka. My sources in fact does the oppisite, it mentions the Shanars of South India to be the same as the Shandors or Shanars from Sri Lanka. It does not mention Caldwells orgin theories at all. I do not insist that the Nalavars and Shanars as the same group but that the Nalavars trace their ancestry to the Shandars or Shanars of Sri Lanka (not the Shanars of Tamil Nadu) as all my sources claimed. And as I need to mention again, the article is about Shanars from both South India and Sri Lanka, so mentioning the Nalavars tracing their lineage to Sri Lankan Shanars seemed right. If we get to consensus, I would mention the Nalavars tracing their lineage to Sri Lankan Shanars to not confuse the readers. You can revert if it is reasonable if you still think my edits are misleading. Xenani (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I used the ref to confirm the differences between the two types of Tamils. If they don't share any relevance, why should it be here? We can't include a section about the French here, can we? That would be redundant and also baffling to the reader. Perhaps you should create a separate page for the Srilanka Shanars or Shandars. That would be more appropriate.Cheers!Mayan302 (talk) 13:35, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Mayan302, your source does not confirm the differences between the Sri Lankan Shandars and South Indian Shanars, it only debunks Cardwells theory that the Shanars trace origin from Sri Lankan Shanars but does not dismiss them as same group. Anyway, where have I mentioned that the Tamil Nadu Nadars called themselves Shandar? I explicit mentioned that the Shanars of Sri Lanka are known as Shandars. My source explicit mentions the Shandars of Sri Lanka as the same community as the Shanars of South India, I quote

"In this context let me make a passing allusion to another community group called Shandar, spreading on either side of the Palk Straits. It constitutes a socio-economic factor of some consequence of Jaffna and, to a less degree, in Puttalam. The group, better known on the Indian side as the Shanar, is a major factor in the population..." Mukherjee, Mandira. "Encyclopaedia of Asian Culture and Society: India, Sri Lanka. South Asia, Volum 2". Anmol publications. p. 244.

Also, my other reference also explicit say the Nalavars evolved from the Shanars, I quote

"It is important to note that the Shanar, or Nalavar as they later evolved, were postulation an independent migration and settlement in Jaffna. It is important to note that the Shanar, or Nalavar as they later evolved, were postulation an independent migration and settlement in Jaffna." Arasaratnam, Sinnappah. Ceylon and the Dutch, 1600-1800: External Influences and Internal Change in Early Modern Sri Lanka. Variorum Collected Studies. p. 381.

As I have mentioned many times on this section, the article says in the lead

"Nadar (also referred to as Nadan, Shanar and Shanan) is a Tamil caste of South India and Sri Lanka."

So why do you constantly want proof of connection between "TamilNad Nadars" and Sri Lankan Shandars when my source clearly says the Shanars of Sri Lanka are also known as Shandars, since I only refer to the Sri Lankan Shanars in my edit. Are the "Nadars" and "Shanars" two different groups? Because the article mentions the original name of the community as Shanars who legally changed the name to "Nadar" which was a title of the higher subcaste of Shanars and the way you ask seems as if they are two different communities. Xenani (talk) 14:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

We are back to square one. You are simply evading all my questions and once again posting something completely irrelevant to confuse everyone. Shanar is just a term. Nothing more or less. There's a town called Salem in India. There is also a Salem in USA. Are they the same? And most importantly the term Shanar is not even used today. I don't have to provide any proofs here. Even if I have to I won't be able to find any, because there's zero relevance between the Nalavars and Nadars. Moreover, the Nadars were never known as Shandars. You can go through the entire Hardgrave book(The Nadars of TamilNad, published by University of California) and The Northern Nadars (by Dennis Templeman; published by Oxford University in1996) if you want to but you won't find anything relevant to the term Shandar. These are thorough anthropological works. Maybe the term Shandrar, mentioned in Hardgrave's book, and the Shandars are the same. It could be anything. Ok. Let's also take a look at your perspective. Suppose a group of Nadars go to Italy and marry some Italians. Does that mean we have to include a section about the Nadars in the Italians page. Moreover this is not even a fact. This is a myth. it's also confusing to read it along with terms like Nambis etc. You have so far not provided any proof that clearly explains all my questions. If a topic is vague and without refs, we can't include it. The Tamil Nadu Nadars had many traditional occupations. Toddy tapping was the traditional occupation of one nadar subcaste. I am sorry. If you can't answer all my questions, it simply means you are basing everything on original research. You want to believe that the Srilanka Shandars and TamilNad Nadars are the same and want to include it. You are right about one thing. We have to remove Srilanka from the lead. It's confusing and redundant. Nadars are also in France. We shouldn't categorise them based on the countries they live in.Mayan302 (talk) 16:18, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

3O Response: Sorry that this went unanswered for so long. I am not knowledgable of the subject and cannot judge the reliability of the sources. However, it seems to me that this is a case of synthesis of published material which states: If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. I'm not saying that the conclusion is wrong, but the way in which the conclusion was reached is considered original research and fails verification standards. Our task is to summarize what is explicitly said in sources, so a we need a reliable source which makes that conclusion on its own. That said, what you can do is report what source A says and what source B says and leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. However, this gets into many other issues of reliability of sources, similar sounding names, etc. as mentioned above. If you want to go in that direction, it may be worthwhile to make a Wikipedia:Requests for comment to invite discussion from the community. If you decide to go this route, I would suggest agreeing upon the wording of the RfC and succinctly summarize your cases (I can't emphasize this enough). Good luck. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:10, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Update, I have made a separate article for the Shandars, who are also known as Marameri Nadar (eng: Nadar climbers). Xenani (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Gramani

According to Hardgrave, the gramanis and Nadars are two different castes. It's also a universal fact. (refer Page no:169&178 of The Nadars of TamilNad, Hardgrave). Please revert the last edit as soon as possible. Thank you! Mayan302 (talk) 16:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

First u see tamilnadu backward class list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4072:6D8A:9675:0:0:7A0B:2708 (talk) 02:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Use the nadar caste talk page. The backward caste list is simply a list mentioning castes that are eligible for positive discrimination. The proof I have provided on the nadar caste talk page speaks about this very clearly. Unless you provide a valid ref to prove that they're the same caste,I will continue to revert your edits.Mayan302 (talk) 06:43, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Please sign up first. You have not provided any sort of reference as of yet that even loosely suggests the connection between the Gramanis, a small Northern Tamil-Nadu caste, and the Nadars. I want the admins to take a look at the evidence I 've provided above and conclude this edit war as soon as possible. Thank you. Mayan302 (talk) 09:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Several problems

Excessive use of hardgrave tilts POV towards one side. There is no use of other balancing sources and authours. Clearly whoever orginally written this article is trying to push claim to pandyan royalty. They tried to make it look neutral but alternate argument has been diluted by using Hardgrave. But Hardgrave clearly seems to deny such high claims but trickery has used by editors by inserting some other authours to dilute the Hardgrave refuting the argument. Hardgrave presents a claim by saanars and rejects that claim however bisaed editor have been projecting the claim part and downplaying the rejection of claims by Hardgrave. Kind of double speak. EruTheLord (talk) 20:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

So present the sources that offer different opinions to Hardgrave. - Sitush (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

There is not a single line in the article that affirmatively states that they were royal race. Please go through everything properly before you edit war. You also tried to remove lines from the Sivakasi Riots page Mayan302 (talk) 05:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

unwanted content

Nadars are classified and listed as a Backward Class by the governments of both Tamil Nadu and India.

This is already said as Nadars are classified and listed as a Backward Class by the governments of both Tamil Nadu and India in ( Nadars today section ). Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 13:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

NADARs were Not lower than Other middle castes and They were only prohibited to brahmana Temples and that were Changed in before indain government Please Remove it A Kindly request from NADAR COMMUNITY Ancient History TAMILNADU (talk) 13:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

We'll keep it the way the cited sources have it. Your change to "Forward Class" has been reverted. Meters (talk) 06:50, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Please remove unwanted contetns In Feedbacks please a kindly request Tamilans History (talk) 11:14, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 February 2021

Nadar , Saanar , gramani were classified as a Forward Caste (General class) and they successfully requested to be reclassified as a Backward Class in 1987 .

PLEASE ADD THIS ON INTERFACE OF NADAR CASTE WIKIPEDIA PAGE. THANK YOU 🙏 2402:3A80:195F:F9DF:0:0:0:2 (talk) 11:32, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 21:15, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2021

Panangaatu Padai Katchi , founder - Rocket Raja, co ordinator - Hari Nadar. One one Political party for nadars Nowaday 2409:4072:6C81:CAE8:4D84:FC77:E2F4:F761 (talk) 13:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2021

"religion was also perceived as a vehicle."

This statement is false.

As there was no discrimination/ difference in growth between Christian nadars or hindu nadars or Ayya vazhi nadars 2402:8100:24C4:653E:5E1A:8439:413:9209 (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Run n Fly (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2021

Nadar (also referred to as Nadan, Kshanar and Kshanan) is a Tamil caste of India. Nadars are predominant in the districts of Kanyakumari, Thoothukudi, Tirunelveli and Virudhunagar. S.S.R.NirmalKumar (talk) 02:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok S.S.R.NirmalKumar (talk) 02:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: No request for a change. Please follow the instructions, the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 February 2021

Nadar,Shaanar,Gramani Caste Were a Forward Community (FC) Till 1987 and They were Requested and Reclassified As a Backward community (BC) For A Bussiness purpose successfully. 106.198.120.90 (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes it was true S.S.R.NirmalKumar (talk) 01:20, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2021

Nadar,Shaanar,Gramani Caste Were a Forward Community (FC) Till 1987 and They were Requested and Reclassified As a Backward community (BC) For A Bussiness purpose successfully. S.S.R.NirmalKumar (talk) 01:29, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 July 2021

I want to add more information under the notable people section. Also more information on the community as I belong to the Nadar community S.arun kannan (talk) 18:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:46, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 July 2021

~~south Tamil nadu Power ful caste. 

_vanniyar. Vanniyar south Tamilnadu and anthra and kerala also powerful caste

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)