Talk:Nakkīraṉãr

Authorship of Nakkeerar I and Nakkeerar II

Hi,

The starting para says:

"Nakkirar II, also spelled Nakkeerar, was a medieval Tamil poet from Madurai. He is renowned for his most famous work, the Tirumurukāṟṟuppaṭai.[1] He was also the author of another work called Iraiyanar Akapporul. He should not be confused with the Sangam period writer Nakkirar I (c. 250 CE), who composed anthologies like the Neṭunalvāṭai.[2]"

I see that it is trying to be helpful distinguishing between Nakkeerar I and II, but it is still confusing because both Tirumurukaarruppatai and Netunalvatai are Sangam literature, while Iraiyanar Akapporul is from about 5th or 6th century CE. I don't see how Nakkeerar II could have authored two from different time periods. Is the starting para right?

Wikirao 13:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikirao (talk • contribs)

Thanks for spotting. I'm confused with these, too. I distinguished these two poets based on whatever little detail available in the sources. However, some of the details need to be deciphered directly out of Old Tamil Sangam verses. I simply retained whatever was available in various sources with the hope that other editors and subject experts could refine these in the future. Will keep refining. Rasnaboy (talk) 12:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus, therefore, not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 09:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

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Nakkirar II → Nakkeerar – Must move back to the original title as this poet was never officially known as "Nakkirar II", and his named is pronounced exactly as it is read: Nakkīrar. Perhaps the article on the Sangam period poet Nakkirar I may be renamed Nakkirar or Nakkirar (Sangam period poet). Either way, we shouldn't use terms like "I" or "II" for disambiguation. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:28, 5 September 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:13, 15 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 20:58, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. However, I'm not sure whether this will solve the problem. Nakkeerar (or Nakkirar) is not the only name referring to several Sangam poets. The Sangam era had several poets sharing same names, confusingly sometimes. Similar to Nakkeerar, we have numerous others such as Avvaiyar (at least seven), Perundevanar (many), Kovur Kilar, Satthanar, to name a few. (Please see S. Kowmareeshwari (Ed.) (2012). Sanga Ilakkiyam: Pathinen Keezhkanakku Noolgal (5 vols). Chennai: Saradha Pathippagam.) Those for whom we have relatively clear historical records can be differentiated using the roman number suffix as we do with several historical personalities. Otherwise, I fear, it might lead to too many confusions. The Tamil sources refer to them as "the first Avvaiyar," "the second Avvaiyar," etc. If not for others, we can have roman number suffixes at least for Avvaiyar, Nakkirar, and few others, since these poets have relatively more details. Suggestions welcome. Rasnaboy (talk) 12:26, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Rasnaboy: How do sources (academic ones) refer to these ones? --Gonnym (talk) 16:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I presume academic books generally mention only the poet's name along with their work. Only when two persons with the same names are compared will they number them as "the first poet," "the second poet," and so on. However, this is tricky and often leads to ambiguity. Although this works fine in stand-alone contexts, following this convention in the title of Wiki articles might lead to confusion (especially when we are also listing them all under categories, linking pages, etc.). Am okay with any suggestion as long as they do not lead to confusions that some of these books already have. Rasnaboy (talk) 18:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The problem is WP:NATURALDIS and WP:V do not allow us to make up a name. Numbering of people means something in Wikipedia (unlike in IMDB). There must be an academic usage or descriptive usage we can use to fix this. --Gonnym (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I think this may end up following the naming convention of the numerous Doctor Whos, beginning with the First Doctor and still continuing with the Thirteenth Doctor. Either way, Nakkirar II is obviously better known one than Nakkirar I, thanks to his appearance in works like Thiruvilaiyadal. Should that make him the primary topic? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:21, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

@User:Gonnym Agree. That makes sense. However, If I were to create separate articles each for all the six or so Avvaiyars, could you suggest how to go about naming these article? Maybe that should resolve this issue. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 10:24, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

@User:Kailash29792 I'm not sure if we can have Nakkirar II as the primary one. This is because while Nakkirar II is famous for the Tiruvilayaadar Puranam, Nakkirar I of the Sangam period is equally known (as are many Sangam poets) for his contribution to the Tiruvalluva Maalai and several Sangam corpus. Perhaps, we can have a disambiguation page listing all Nakkirars. Will this suffice? Thanks in advance. Rasnaboy (talk) 10:24, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

If there are at least three Nakkirars (or Nakkeerar, however you spell), we can create a DAB page to avoid violating WP:TWODABS. But I was referring to the fact how Nakkirar II became popular with the masses, not just because of the Tiruvilayaadar Puranam, but the film Thiruvilaiyadal which adapted the episode from the Puranam. This is the scene. Kailash29792 (talk) 10:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.