Talk:Napoleon/GA2

GA Review

Thank you for your GA nomination. I have now reviewed the article according to the Good article criteria, and posted the review below.

1 Well written

1.1 Prose

• This is generally good, although a copyedit is always useful. No GA-blocker issues though.

1.2 Manual of Style

I've made a few tweaks here and there:

• Check that all French words are spelt correctly (mainly those with accents eg Vendemiaire → Vendémiaire)
• Dashes that break up a sentence should normally be an unspaced emdash (see WP:MOSDASH), although spaced endashes are also ok. I've changed the hyphens to the former, so if you prefer the latter feel free to alter them ;)
• Although mid-sentence inline citations are not forbidden, personally I think they break up the flow of a sentence unnecessarily. Many of these could be moved to the end of the sentence (the order of the cites then reflects the order of the assertions being cited in the sentence). However, this is a stylistic issue and not a GA-blocker, so it's your call.
• The article is overlinked in places (only link a word if it adds to the understanding of the topic, and then only only the first instance). I took out duplicate wikilinks where I noticed them, but I'm sure I missed loads so it could do with checking through.
• Since the article largely followed British English spelling, I've changed those Am-E spellings I noticed to match. I have no preference, but spelling style should be consistent.

2 Factual accuracy

• Link check passed; sources look good
• I've tagged one or two sentences that need explicit citations.
• "In the latter half of the twentieth century, several people claimed other causes for his death..." To justify 'several', I think this needs further citation.
• The quotation given in the paragraph that begins "Critics of Napoleon argue his true legacy..." (in Autocracy) is a little confusing. I've tweaked the quote marks to what I think is correct, but if it's all quoted from one source it might be best as a blockqote, and I think for such a long quotation we ought to be told in the article who is being quoted.

3 Coverage

• Looks good

4 Neutrality

• A fair and balanced article - no issues here.

I thoroughly disagree with the above comment. Napoleon is presented in this article as "personally anti-semitic", in flagrant contradiction with the content of the article on him, and the article "Napoleon and the Jews", in which we learn that he was centuries ahead of his time in treating Jews as first class citizens throughout Europe (and incurring the hostility of just about every major power for doing so). His(supposed) anti-semitism, as referred to in the article, is ridiculous: when you read about his liberating and assimilating the Jews and follow the link to the article on anti-semitism (with an obvious section on the Nazi regime and the Night of Cristal), it's difficult to see what basis (and I should add that no reference is cited to justify the claim that he was "personally antisemitic") there is for saying that he wasn't a philosemite. For the sake of encyclopedic neutrality, it would be normal to cite an author who made such a claim, but there are many more (including Jewish authors and statesmen) who consider Napoleon as their liberator. I therefore propose that the phrase "Napoleon was personally anti-semitic" be removed, or modified to reflect the fact that it is an opinion, and not an established fact. Executeur (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

There is a reference cited to justify the claim (Mclynn 436), why can't you see it? Please don't delete sources. Do you have reliable source to back-up your argument? He did a lot of good for the jews but we need to have a balanced article not a totally pro or negative one, Tom B (talk) 01:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

As I said there are many sources who would take exception to the allegation that he was anti-semitic. Ben Weider quotes a statement he made in reply to anti-semitic opponents of his policy of assimilation within France "This is not the way to solve the Jewish question. I will never accept any proposaIs that will obligate the Jewish people to leave France, because to me the Jews are the same as any other citizen in our country. It takes weakness to chase them out of the country, but it takes strength to assimilate them." You can find it on the link to his article on the subject.

McLynn's argument is based on the premise that forbidding usury was an attack against the Jews, rather than against usurers (not all of whom were Jewish), which misses the point that Napoleon's policy was an assimilationist one: the Jews were to be equal citizens and preserve their religion, but they were accordingly ruled by the same laws as other citizens and their religion was organised by the Sanhedrin. If you compare the article "Napoléon et les Juifs" with "Napoleon and the Jews", you'll find that there's a different slant depending on whether it's the French article ("assimilation = good") or the English one "assimilation = ambiguous". It's a cultural impass. In the article "Napoleon and the Jews", the allegation of antisemitism is left in, but balanced against Napoleon's own quoted opinions on the subject. And as I said above, in his day anti-semitism was socially acceptable, so I think we can consider that he was going against accepted opinion, given that he was seen as so favourable to the Jews that the Russian Orthodox Church labelled him the "Anti Christ and Enemy of God"(Vincent Cronin, Napoleon, HarperCollins 1994, p315)... titles normally reserved for the Devil!Executeur (talk) 17:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

As the section on the cause of his death already runs over 200 words, this link may interest you http://www.jewishtribune.ca/TribuneV2/content/view/553/5/ Executeur (talk) 17:22, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

5 Stability

• Although the article clearly attracts some POV editors, page protection seems to have helped. No concerns.

6 Images

• Goya 2nd May image duplicate of version on commons; replace. Others look good (note layout in places)

thanks, have now requested speedy deletion of image and changed link in article straight to a cleaned version of the picture on commons which does not have a duplicate. Have also removed one of the villa pictures as image heavy in that area, Tom (talk) 22:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks (quick work too in responding to the draft review!) EyeSerene^talk 09:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Napoleon seated on the Imperial throne" - this could do with a more informative caption (painted by... etc). Same for some of the other images.

I have placed the article on hold to allow the above concerns to be addressed. This will last for approximately one week, although can be extended if constructive editing is still taking place. I'll check back here regularly, and please get in touch if you have any questions. Regards, EyeSerene^talk 09:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

thanks, particularly for being so specific and doing those changes. i've made all the major changes. On english spelling, I had already thought I'd put everything into British but it looks like 'maneouvre' got through. On foreign spelling, I think everything is spelt right, it's just about diacritics. There is a discussion at wp:mos which on the face of it seems neutral, though as the title is Napoleon rather than Napoléon I thought the most simple and consistent way forward was to simply remove all diacritics. Tom (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response - looking good so far. Re the diacritics, I don't intend to get hung up on it ;) However, with previous articles I've worked on, the convention has always been to include them (eg Battle of Verrières Ridge). IIRC the MoS recommends using the most common English term for the article title though, so there's some inconsistency in the system. EyeSerene^talk 07:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Cheers. On diacritics, there was probably consensus established regarding the title Battle of Verrières Ridge. There was a discussion regarding the article title Talk:Napoleon_I_of_France/Archive_1#His_name and I've implemented consistency from that. I also saw scope for inconsistency in the wp:Mos but in this case there is probably at least one type of consistency: Battle of Verrières Ridge may normally be known by English speakers with the diacritic whilst Napoleon is nearly always spelt by English speakers without the diacritic. Tom (talk) 12:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

GA pass

Thank you for the improvements you have made to this article. I now have no hesitation in passing it as a Good article, and have listed it as such as WP:GA. For further improvement in the future, the "Notes and references" section could be divided into separate Footnotes and References, and a parenthetical referencing system might be useful in trimming the list a bit.

Great job; well done! EyeSerene^talk 16:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)