Talk:National Palace (Haiti)

Title

I'm not sure what the proper title for this article should be in the end. I'm guessing either the current title, National Palace (Haiti), or Presidential Palace of Haiti (which currently redirects here) will be what we end up with. I've also created a redirect for Haitian Presidential Palace since it's a likely search option. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Most references I have located (New York Times, 1900-2010, primarily) refer to it as the National Palace. Haitian guidebooks (in French) describe it as the Palais Nationale, which is the name on the architect's published plans.Kitchawan (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

destroyed

A photo that will not be deleted of the destroyed palace would be good. 76.66.197.17 (talk) 14:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Per @Bigtimepeace: please stop editing article to refer to palace in past tense, extent of damage is unclear, and for all we know it will be reconstructed exactly as it was within a year). (Sorry, I hadn't checked the history. Adding to discussion for clarity.) Aaronwinborn (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

What has this got to do with a photo request??? 76.66.197.17 (talk) 08:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"Destroyed"/referring to palace in past tense

Apropos the comment above and some recent edits (which will probably come up again), I think it's simply incorrect to refer to the palace as having been "destroyed" or use language that refers to it in the past tense. Clearly the damage was massive, and it's entirely possible that the structure is done for, will never be used again, and will eventually be razed and replaced with something entirely new. But right now we simply don't know. Perhaps parts of the building are still usable, or perhaps reconstructing the National Palace on its current foundations so it appears exactly as it existed before the earthquake will become a top priority during the lengthy recovery effort. Maybe it will be considered a new building, or maybe just a "fixing" of the old one. As I said we don't know and obviously right now it really doesn't matter given the massive human tragedy that's still unfolding, but it's simply speculative and a form of original research to look at a photo of the palace and say "that building is destroyed, we need to refer to it in past tense." It should be referred to as the currently existing National Palace of Haiti until we have clear evidence to the contrary. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Its top two stories have entirely collapsed into the ground floor. I do not think it unreasonable at all to say that the palace has been destroyed. The news stories say it is destroyed. The President of Haiti says it is destroyed. I think we can say it is destroyed. 70.177.94.136 (talk) 05:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We can probably say that that so long as there are sources that say it was "destroyed" (and not contrary sources that say it was merely "severely damaged"—otherwise how do we know which sources we should use?). Someone else made reference to what the president of Haiti said about the palace—do you have a link for that? Your case would be a lot more slam-dunk if you provided sources. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Having looked at the palace from above on Google Earth, it appears there is more to the building than what we see of it in most recent published photos after the earthquake; so, Bigtimepeace has a point in that we don't know whether the entire structure has fallen in on itself. However, it is evident from those photos that the elements described in the article (essentially the front wing) are now gone, and we can hence use the past tense to describe them. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 07:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe that if the President of Haiti refers to it as destroyed, it is YOU who are carrying out original research based on your own assumptions of the state of the building (that the building is "severely damaged"). Most international news sources are using either "collapsed" or "destroyed" yet you guys are holding on to your interpretation, which goes against that of the Presidency of Haiti (the tenants of the building) and that of the press. Who is doing original research here???? I suggest you change back to at least "the building has collapsed, with some parts of the first story remaining". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.89.5 (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"Most international news sources..." Should be easy for you to provide some links, then. Thanks. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Sources? No problem. CNN: "the national palace stands in ruins" as a caption, described as "collapsed" further down in the text: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.earthquake/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.89.5 (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

A great deal of the discussion here appears to be POV: one man's ruins is another man's damaged.Kitchawan (talk) 15:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. One Wikipidian's POV should not go against what a great deal of international "respected" news sources are reporting.... Such as:

AFP: "'Haitian presidential palace collapses after quake'" http://www.ptinews.com/news/465742_-Haitian-presidential-palace-collapses-after-quake-

Times of India "Presidential palace collapses after earthquake in Haiti" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Presidential-palace-collapses-after-earthquake-in-Haiti-Report/articleshow/5439037.cms

Herald Sun (Australia) "presidential palace collapses"

Daily News (NY, USA) " presidential palace almost completely destroyed" http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/12/2010-01-12_hospital_collapses_panic_in_the_streets_as_powerful_quake_rocks_haiti.html

Straits Times (Singapore): "Haitian palace collapses" http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_476705.html

National Public Radio NPR (USA): http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122522526

And finally, President Preval himself has categorized the palace as having "collapsed."

Perhaps stating the palace has "partially collapsed" is more accurate than describing it as having sustained "severe damage." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.89.5 (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the links; they certainly help. However, media often overexaggerates for dramatic effect. A video, the link to which is poster below, shows that the three rear wings of the palace remain mostly intact; the front is what has been destroyed. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The current wording ("severely damaged, with sections fully collapsed") seems like a good phrasing for now. Someone points out in the section below that the rear of the building appears to be more in tact. It's still possible that this could result in a massive repair job rather than a razing and rebuilding, so saying "destroyed" remains premature (it's also worth pointing out that "collapsed" and "destroyed" are not synonyms, particularly when only parts of a building seem to have collapsed rather than the entire thing). --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Picture of severely damaged palace

If anyone wants it http://haitifeed.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/9-haiti-earthquake-jan-12-2009.jpeg It looks pretty beat up to me. Teafico (talk) 03:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There is video clip of the palace (aerial view) on BBC web site. Damage is extensive, but I would not say it is destroyed, unless it is later dedcided that all parts of it have suffered serious enough damage to make it impossible to repair.

The front you see in photos suffered most damage. Other parts are less affected. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8458266.stm 130.188.8.10 (talk) 12:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Official Name of Building

Is it the National Palace (as seems to be the overwhelming case in New York Times stories throughout the 20th century) or is it the Presidential Palace?Kitchawan (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I have checked Baussan's plans, which have been published, and it is called Palais nationale.Kitchawan (talk) 16:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Style of the building

I have a bit of a problem with the sentence "Like other public buildings in Haiti, Baussan's National Palace drew on the tradition of French Renaissance architecture and greatly resembled structures erected in France and its colonial territories during the late 19th century, including the City Hall of Port-au-Prince and the country's Supreme Court Building, both Baussan creations." It's more Second Empire style than Renaissance proper. Although, it is true that Second Empire style draws also from French Renaissance (and French Baroque). The timing of the design of the building (1912) also fits more Second Empire (late 19th century) than Renaissance (16th century). --194.213.41.2 (talk) 15:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You could well be right about that, I'm certainly not an expert on architectural history. The source for the idea that this is in the style of French Renaissance architecture is here (click on page 174), which is a book on historic architecture in the Caribbean published in 1994. If you have another source that describes this as being more in Second Empire style then I think it would be appropriate to change it, but we would need a source. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

File:Haitian national palace earthquake.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Haitian national palace earthquake.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 12, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-01-12. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 21:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

This photo, taken the day after the 2010 Haiti earthquake, shows the damage it caused to the National Palace of Haiti. The palace's collapsed cupola has become a symbol of the devastation caused by the quake. The Haitian government is currently in the process of demolishing the remains in preparation for reconstruction.Photo: Logan Abassi, UNDP Global

Cit. 42, France to rebuild

Dead link - goes to a news homepage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.240.167 (talk) 07:20, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Current parliament building

Where is the Parliament based at the moment? Sdrawkcab (talk) 15:13, 5 September 2019 (UTC)