Talk:National Party – Greeks

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because the article has correct information compared to the old article, deleting it will cause misinformation to those who use Wikipedia to be educated about certain things in a Country. I corrected the title to the original translation from the Greek title, deleting that puts it back to the old title with the incorrect translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SymeonHellas (talk • contribs) 12:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Are they really "right-wing"?

I have some concerns about where this party falls under the political spectrum. The party was founded by a former member of Greece's Neo-Nazi party. And he (Ilias Kasidiaris) is described by his own Wikipedia page, as a "Fascist, Holocaust denier, and neo-Nazi". Furthermore, this party was apparently separated from Golden Dawn because Kasidiaris and Nikolaos Michaloliakos had a falling out about the branding and leadership of the party. And finally, the first goal that Greeks for the Fatherland want to start with is "Solving the Greek demographic problem by increasing birth-rates through tax exemptions, economic help and rewarding motherhood" which to me sounds a lot like Golden Dawn's plan to increase Greek birth rates witch was modeled by Nazi Germany. Since this is a relatively new party and hasn't had the chance to run in the Greek general elections. But from what I'm seeing this party looks a lot more far-right than right-wing, and I've seen that on other political parties that are a lot less radical than Greeks for the Fatherland they are labels as "right-wing to far-right" (Sweden Democrats or National Rally).

I am proposing that we at least change their political spectrum to "right-wing to far-right" or just "far-right". --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

As you say the party is quite new and it's hard to tell. I'm fine with either "right-wing" or "right-wing to far-right". Kasidiaris mostly uses the term "nationalist" to describe his new party. He also said that he wanted to model it on the Italian Lega of Salvini. Concerning the birth rate problem, the same measures have applied by other right-wing parties (Putin, Orban) but I'm sure also by other parties as a low birth rate causes an economic problem in the long run. — Orgyn (talk) 21:24, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Interesting... I didn't know that Putin wanted to increase birth rates. I saw an ad for a documentary about the families of the top members of Golden Dawn. In that documentary Eleni Zaroulia, Michaloliakos's wife gives her definition of "neo-Nazi" as being synonymous with nationalistic. I wonder of Kasidiaris might have the same definition of "neo-Nazi" as Zaroulia. Maybe, maybe not. When Kasidiaris had the argument with Michaloliakos, Kasidiaris was more of the side of wanting to change the branding of Golden Dawn and Michaloliakos wanted to not condemn the nazism and fascism if I've understood it correctly. Since the party is only a couple of months old it hasn't really got a chance. But still, Kasidiaris according to his Wikipedia page is still a Holocaust denier and a neo-Nazi. It is also worth noting that the party is also Anti-Turkism witch no other political party except for Golden Dawn was during their time in parliament. Which adds on to the relic of the passed Golden Dawn. There are plenty of sources that can tell you that Greeks for the Fatherland is a far-right party and others that will tell you that they are just right-wing.

Personally, to me "far-right" or "right-wing to far-right" seem the most correct way to describe this party. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

So? Would it be okay to use the "Right-wing to far-right" label? --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 17:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The Greek Wikipedia is not at all credible to politicians. Ilias Kasidiaris has rejected Nazism and Fascism, however, in a country like Greece where the media is controlled by Kyriakos Mitsotakis and his government , it is very difficult to find out the truth. Ilias Kasidiaris is simply a Nationalist, not a Nazi and a fascist. The Greeks for the Fatherland are a right-wing party and not an far-right one, in fact they renounce Nazism and Fascism in their statutes. The topic ends here and you consider the discussion over! Αθλητικά (talk) 07:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I do agree with your first claim (The Greek Wikipedia is not at all credible to politicians) as most of these articles are written by very far-left activists… However, on Wikipedia, it's not really what the party's claim is but rather what Wikipedia decides it is according to some external sources like academics, journalists, etc. This will also vary among the different Wiki, e.g. New Democracy is center-right to right on the French one, center-right on the English and center to center-right on the Greek one… — Orgyn (talk) 09:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Very very true. A wiki page can change sense just if you change the language but it is just up to the reader to fact-check the subject and find out if it is true or not. I can take so öany examples of this happening but that's for maybe another time. The RSF's rapport on Greece's press freedom at a 65 witch would but Greece in with countries such as Poland and Japan. And the statement that Prime Minister Mitsotakis is looking over the media seems to be somewhat true. I have found a couple of sources that call Greeks for the Fatherland "far-right" but since it is a pretty young party I can see why there aren't as many reports on this party as there would be with Golden Dawn. I can't comment on the "Greek Wikipedia" situation because I know nothing about that. A party can reject certain ideologies or political labels but they can still be called "far-right", "Nazis", "Communists" etc. e.g. Nordic Resistance Movement is a pan-nordic neo-Nazi organization, they claim to reject Nazism and call themselves "National Socialists". Yet they believe in antisemitism and they believe in Jewish supremacy, they believe in deporting every non-white person, they believe that there were no gas chambers in concentration camps, they believe in violence , they believe in abolishing democracy, and they believe in the death penalty. They also were protesting in Greece along with Golden Dawn members. The Party of the Swedes (SvP) were a neo-Nazi party in Sweden founded by former members of National Socialist Front (NSF). And housed many of the ideas that NSF had such as abolishing democracy, Deporting all non-whites from Sweden, they were in the Alliance for Peace and Freedom European affiliation where Golden Dawn was a member, they wrote an open letter of support to Golden Dawn. Their last party leader Stefan Jacobsson was a member of the Swedish Resistance Movement that later merged into the Norwegian and Finnish resistance movement to form the Nordic Resistance Movement. Former party leader Daniel Höglund and deputy party leader Anders Ärleskog previously represented the National Socialist Front in its national leadership. The Swedish National Socialist described the formation of the Popular Front as follows: A new party has been born. The struggle for the Swedish people has always been going on, but only now is there a tool to win that battle. There is a long way to go, there is no doubt about that, but through the birth of the People's Front, one can anticipate the coming victory. Despite this they never called themselves "Nazis" but nationalist (keep in mind Nationalists is not synonymous with Nazi) even though they had openly antisemitic policies and ran a "white's only" eugenics program just like Golden Dawn ran a "Greeks only" program when they were distributing food. Those are just two examples of how potential hundreds of parties, organizations, groups that believe in Nazism but are too coward to admit it. Keep in mind that the nordic countries Here are a couple of articles about Greeks for the Fatherland and their political position: /, . Feel free to send any articls claimg otherwise.--Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Initially, most foreign media copy or get ready the news from the Greek media which were financed during the Covid-19 epidemic with 20,000,000 € by the Mitsotakis cabinet (among others, the SYRIZA (Avgi) and KKE (Rizospastis) Newspapers were also funded). From there on some of them come from Golden Dawn. However, this does not make it far-right at the same time when the extreme right expresses views such as Nazism and Fascism which have been denounced and condemned in the party's founding statute. Αθλητικά (talk) 16:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

You can still have parties like for example the Party of the Swedes or the Nordic Resistance Movement that quote "condemn" ideologies like Nazism, Fascism, and Metaxism but still be far-right. You can just take a look at Vox in Spain that is considered a far-right party. But if you're going to take Greeks for the Fatherland as an example, you have to base your claims on sources. The party is relatively new and as being founded by Kasidiaris. Kasidiaris was in Golden Dawn for I don't know how many years and left in May 2020 and created the Greeks for the Fatherland if I understood all of this correctly. But if you are apart of a political party and decide to shift from a Neo-Nazi party and then to create a party that is "Right-wing" doesn't sound that logical to me. Saying that there is no connection whatsoever to his past as being a member of Golden Dawn isn't really something I would believe in. You can take an example of far-right/neo-nazi political parties all over Europe, they all say that they are not Nazis but then praise Hitler and the Nazis in the 30s, look at The III. Path, National Democratic Party of Germany, People's Party Our Slovakia, or any neo-nazi party they will claim threw a spokesperson that they are not nazis. It isn't because Kasidiaris says that Greeks for the Fatherland aren't far-right that they aren't. Base your research on sources that are credible with WPRSN and not just a source that comes out of nowhere and is clearly biased towards one side. I cited some the last time, you can go and check them out.--Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 20:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

First of all... There are some things said above that make me laugh! You say that among with Mitsotakis Goverment, also the left-wing parties are controling the media. This is absolute wrong. New Democracy indeed controls most of the media, but the propaganda is anti-left. So, SYRIZA and KKE obviously don't control anything. Avgi and Rizospastis are their official party newspapers and they are not funded by the gvrmnt. Also, in Greek Wikipedia, most of the writers are pro-goverment. Others support ideas of the four left-wing parties (KKE, SYRIZA, MERA25, KINAL), but theese parties are not far-left (in Greece KKE is considered the original left-wing party, not a far-left one). Now, to the point, Kasidiaris has officialy rejected nazism and fascism this is right. But this doesn't make him a right-wing. Most of the ID members are described as far-right, but they all reject nazism and fascism. The ideas of the party are far-right, not right-wing (the term far-right doesn't mean that they are nazi). 91.140.56.137 (talk) 15:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Greeks for the Fatherland do reject nazism as I've mentioned before but they split from Golden Dawn around 9 months ago. Greeks for the Fatherland might be far-right or not. Some news outlets do also use the term far-right and neo-nazi interchangeably. They use far-right as a sort of insult. Since you can definitely make the claim that they are far-right since they split off from GD but more is needed. Greeks for the Fatherland are not also of ID. Because in that case the KKE would be called far-left since Svenska Nyheter called them so, btw they are also part of IMCWP which SKP in Sweden, CCP, and North Korea's Workers' Party are also all members of to my knowledge they wouldn't be left-wing but far-left. Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 19:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Greeks for the Fatherland are not members of the ID but they have the same ideas. That's why I'm talking about Far-right. Right-wing is used to describe conservative parties (like the Conservative Party of UK). Greeks for the Fatherland have some ideas like anti-communism, anti-immigration, nationalism, national economy etc., that are described as far-right.
About the case of KKE, first of all I understand that most of the european or american countries would describe it as far-left. But in Greece things are different. In Greece we describe the anarchists as far-left. Communist Party in Greece is the original successor of EAM-ELAS, the left-wing and also most powerful resistance during the WW2. Also the other political parties that are described as "left of the centre" (SYRIZA, PASOK, MERA25) are political connected with EAM-ELAS and so with KKE (they are usually disagree with KKE but they are historical relatives, that's why KKE is described as the original left). About the IMCWP, the parties that take part there usually don't aggree, it's something like tradition. KKE is closer to the ideas of European Left Party (it is not take part because it disagree with some of them, some years before it was also a member). Generally, it rejects the politicies of North Korea's Workers' Party or of Chinese Communist Party. But this does not actually matters at this article it was a response to the greek users above that are obviously lying about things in our country and try to connect New Democracy with the Greek left-wing parties and to describe greek users as far-left. 5.55.58.159 (talk) 21:08, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I believe that you are wrong. Things anti-communism, anti-immigration, nationalism, national economy etc. are not necessarily far-right. Those ideologies might be used by far-right parties but a lot of them are used by regular right-wing parties. Parties that don't want socialism a.k.a. a European CCP/USSR. Opposition to immigration in the sense of having a well-regulated border and not have the floodgates open like what happened in 2015 and onwards. Parties like the British National Party do have anti-immigration and so dose UKIP but they are very different from one another, one wants to end the immigration of non-whites and have basically no immigration what so ever (horrible economical plan), and the other wants a regulated British border with useful work immigration (doctors, professors, etc.) and not close the border 100% as the BNP wants. A more center-right view would be the Swedish Moderate Party and the Swedish Social Democratic Party who have had in their 2018 party manifesto a better view on immigration, that doesn't make them far-right. Depending on the variant of nationalism (would it be ethno or just regular nationalism) it can be far-right or not. The want for nationalism isn't bad, since that would mean that you care about a nation, not about what they look like, and so on. But a nation needs to have some basic things like a common language and such. That doesn't seem the least bit controversial to me. Knowing that there is also Left-wing nationalism. Idk about national economy/economic nationalism. Now when it comes to the IMCWP, Greece/KKE were the organizers of the event! In 1998 they organized the first meeting of the IMCWP and it even took place in Greece. I don't know if NK's Workers' Party or the CCP attended the first meeting or not. But the fact that genocidal parties like the CCP, Workers' Party, and Communist Party of Cuba are allowed to attend alongside Greece shows a different side of the KKE, does it not? The KKE being involved in the resistance doesn't really mean something since communist only resistance during that time. People who were in anti-nazi resistance were a lot of the time people who weren't Nazis. Them fighting Nazis during WWII isn't really relevant. Also knowing that the KKE and its youth group blamed Capitalism on the George Floyd. That isn't that left-wing in my opinion. And how do I know that you are not lying to me? Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 12:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you say. But Greeks for the Fatherland belong to the UKIP like parties category. Ilias Kasidiaris and generally the members of this party are against immigration and they believe that almost all off the immigrants are illegal and want to force them go back to their countries. Also when I am talking about anti-communism I don't mean that they are simply against of the Communist Party. They believe that all the left-wing parties (SYRIZA, KKE, MERA25) are communist ones and they support policies like of Metaxas or Papadopoulos regimes that banned the communists and the left-wingers. With theese data I think that it's impossible to compare Greeks for the Fatherland with the classic right-wing conservative parties. About KKE, the IMCWP is something like a forum the parties don't agree each other. KKE has characterised China as a capitalist authoritarian regime, and North Korea as a far-right state. Parties like the United Left (Spain) are also part of these meetings. About George Floyd, KKE is generally too anti-capitalist and usually it blames everything bad to capitalism, but I don't think that this makes them far-left. And I say again that this is not part of the specific discussion ad that beliefs about communism in Greece may be different from other countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.92.76.122 (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if Kasidiaris' party can only be characterized as far-right. Some instances of conservatism are surely mentioned somewhere in the party's manifesto. The argument I was making for it to be characterized as being far-right was that the party's leader is Ilias Kasidiaris, the former spokesman for GD, and he and his party can't just go around claiming only the right-wing label just after leaving GD. UKIP is also a party that has the "Right-wing to far-right" label on it, because if they are supposed to be in the same group then why not put something like (with right-wing factions) underneath the "far-right" part. Also wanting to have a restrictive immigration policy to not have the whole 2015-incident happen again isn't far-right the Five Star Movement has anti-immigration views and sat with social democratic parties, and with UKIP in their European Group. Far-right is when you go around policing stands looking for identity cards and if there aren't they then you smash up their stand. Far-right is wanting to ban certain opinions/political views, but from what I can see, the KKE which has the word "Communist" in its name is a communist party and can still be called far-left (I will get into that in a bit), but MeRA25 seem pretty left-wing, and there isn't that much doubt about that, and so is Syriza (a bit). The last two aren't far-left, but KKE kinda is. During the IMCWP, the KKE, like the CCP and WPK stand up with their fist in the hand just like the rest of the communists at the meeting, and they wave the same red flag. I can't find the original first members but if the KKE invited the WPK & CCP then wouldn't that be counterintuitive? Knowing also that the KKE sent its "deepest condolences" to the so-called far-right state of North Korea since the idea of NK being far-right originates from Japan's fascist takeover of the Korean peninsula and its remains there. Although that is disputed if they are really far-right or not, just like China and capitalism, that is off-topic. If the IMCWP is just a convention for Communists to united and talk then fine, but that also does say something about the KKE and how they behave towards WPK and the CCP, but as I've said, that's off-topic. Now about the KKE blaming the death of George Floyd of capitalism is quite far-left, since they seem to have a quiet anti-capitalist ideology. The act was also committed by their youth group, which sometimes can be more radical than their mother party, i.e. Swedish political parties and their youth groups are often very different from one another as an example. But since the KKE haven't condemned their act they might agree with it. Also on a side note; not to be rude or anything, just friendly advice, I've seen that you make some grammatical mistakes and you might want to download "Grammarly", I've used it for a long time and it works wonders! --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 22:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

First of all thank you for the advice about the gramatical mistakes, I will use "Grammarly" at the future! About Greeks for the Fatherland... Maybe if we use their official political positions we could describe them as "right-wing to far-right". But, of course, the political parties cannot be described only by this. First of all the party is based to its leader so it cannot have fractions, they all have the same political opinions. Also, their phraseology is too radical against left-wing politicians, they usually use words like "traitors", "anarchists" (here I need to clear that above I didn't said that SYRIZA and MERA25 are communist parties, but Greeks for the Fatherland see them all as communists), and generally they are talking about "political cleaning" and other such as this (that seems really dangerous to me). About immigration, they are not just against the immigration policies: they believe that almost all the immigrants in Greece are illegal and promises that if they become government they will send them back (too extreme for right-wing), they also usually talking about foreigners with racist words. It's also important to say that at their first days Greeks for the Fatherland organized a protest in were they burned Turkish flags. And of course, the most important is that most of the members were part of GD, in my opinion the most nazist party (now officially considered a criminal organization) with political representation in Europe after NSDAP. (at that point I need to say that Kasidiaris is imprisoned for the direction of GD, also too many members had violently past attacking to immigrants and left-wing protesters and using impossible phraseology inside the parliament. for example, Konstantinos Barbarousis, a member of Greeks for the Fatherland, as a member of GD had called the army(!) to arrest the SYRIZA-ANEL government members, inside the parliament.) Obviously these people cannot say goodbye to their past and all these facts I mentioned above, make any connection of this party with right-wing impossible.About KKE, you say that they are communist so they are far-left. This is completely acceptable, as I said before, it's about different countries point of view. The english-international wikipedia describe KKE as far-left, but in greek it's described as left-wing. Because most of the Greeks (only the most conservatives, the nationalists and the far-right maybe disagree) see communism as the original left and KKE just as a left-wing eurosceptistic party, this is because of the history of Greece that at the 20th century KKE (then the only left-wing party) was something like the symbol of resistance against dictatorships and the Axis powers and it had too many supporters. That's why historicaly we use Communism as a democratic symbol, while in other countries it is associated with authoritarian regimes. In Greece the politicians from centre-right (and even right-wing) to left-wing honor the actions of the communists (left-wingers generally) during the 20th century so it's too difficult to describe it as far-left (think that me saying that, don't support KKE). Far-left in Greece is used for anarchists. Of course all of that is only about Greece, internationally KKE could be described as a far-left party. 176.92.76.122 (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I've heard a lot of stories about GD and its anti-democratic rhetoric and actions they did while in parliament and in their extra-parliamentary opposition. I agree with a lot of the things you say regarding those actions. I didn't call SYRIZA or MERA25 communist either, I just said that MERA25 is "pretty left-wing" since they are democratic-socialists. About immigration, I know that Greece took in a lot of immigrants from middle eastern countries before 2015 and that they did take in a lot of people legal or not. Also, note that 80% of illegal immigration passed through Greece and Turkey sich might explain them hating Turkey so much, or it's just some historical stuff with the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople becoming Istanbul, etc. So them no liking immigration might have something to do with that. Now about the KKE, the side you are giving seems pretty logical to me and why it is acceptable to have a seemingly far-left party in parliament yet call it left-wing since they did things to fight Nazis. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

We generally agree... Just to note that Greeks for the Fatherland are not against Turkey because they are angry about the immigrants (maybe their voters are), but they hate them because of history. But for any reason this is happening it's extreme, they are not against the turkish government, they are against the turkish people. Also about immigration they are not only against the new wave of immigrants, they are against all (even Albanians that came here from the 90's) and their phraseology is racists many times. About the Arabs they say crazy things, like they are coming here because somebody has recruited them to come and change our culture in order to attack in the future. The immigration crisis or the historical differences with Turkey cannot justify such as extreme behavior. Nevertheless, as you can see there is right-wing at the infobox again because the other greek user has insisted too much (I think that nobody would find acceptable source naming the party as right-wing so it is going to be deleted again).About KKE I didn't say that we name it left-wing only because it fought Nazis (and other far-right juntas). We name it left-wing because most of the people show a kind of respect and they are not easy to describe it as far (we don't consider it as an extreme party). Also it is the mother party of the left-wing in Greece (even PASOK was a mix of politicians from EAM-ELAS/KKE and the Centre Union), so we generally describe them as left-wingers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.92.76.122 (talk) 17:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I can recall GD use such rhetoric against Turks and "wanting to go back to the days of the Byzantine Empire". But also some rather normal things to be angry about, such as the Greek genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire which didn't happen that long ago if you compare it to something like the fall of Constantinople. They also blame the Turkish government for forcing mass migration on the EU/Greece which has been documented. The greek Wikipedia user you are mentioning is Αθλητικά, he created the page calling it right-wing and I've asked him to come to the Talk page but most of the time; he came, wrote his argument and left and edited the page and preferred to argue in the "View history" section. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Well... the normal things that they are angry, are normal as you said. This anger don't belong only to GD or other far-right nationalists. All the Greeks are angry against the current Turkish government and any other neo-ottomanists and we are also angry about the genocide of our people and also the illegal occupation at the northern part of Turkey and also the forcing mass migration on our country and also threaten us and coming illegal in our seas. But this anger is normal only when it is against the Turkish governments, the Turkish people did nothing to us, they actually have too much common with us. Burning their flags or say that we must go back at Byzantine Empire and kill them is racist and far-right behavior. About my compatriot user Αθλητικά, he is probably a supporter of this ideologies and he tries to "prettify" the party's profile, using unsubstantiated and false information with no arguments, insisting in his opinion (in Greek wikipedia, at the talk of the same page, he deleted three times a section of me, that I was saying to remove the term right-wing). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.57.183 (talk) 22:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they blame the Turkish people because they keep voting in Turkish politicians that they don't like, and their behavior towards things like the Armenian Genocide to which Erdoğan and every other president have denied (I take the genocide as an example, I'm not too familiar with the Greek genocide and if Turkey recognizes it. I don't know what GD or Greeks for the Fatherland thinks about it i.e. do they recognize it.) About them burning the Turkish flag, a lot of people burn flags, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they are an-[incert country], the Ottoman flag also does look a bit like the Turkish flag. I agree with pretty much everything else you said. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Turkish government does not recognize the Genocides and as I said, everyone in Greece hate the Turkish gvrmnt. But they did not burnt flags because they are Ottoman, they show hate to Turkey (blaming the people because of voting this government is acceptable, hate them is differnet / also Turkish people live in a state with propaganda and I don't really know if they have too much options or if they are able to judge their government / For example, today Erdoğan moved to ban HDP). And they are not just Anti-Turkic, they show racism to Muslims, Hebrews and Africans immigrants and they hate Left-wingers. They also are Extreme-Conservatives not just conservatives. These are the facts that makes them a far-right party in my opinion. Generally I also think we agree with pretty much everything. 5.54.63.7 (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 22:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

References

this article has been removed form the greek wikipidia that it is based form

this article has been removed form the greek wikipidia that it is based form and it shoud be removed form here too https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7:%CE%88%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1_%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD_%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%AE%CF%82 --79.167.132.16 (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the article should be removed. The political party has been featured in national polls, its leader is a former MP, is a deputy in Athens' parliament and is currently serving a prison sentence. So it's notable enough to be on Wikipedia. — Orgyn (talk) 20:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: I do not see why this should be deleted just because it was removed from the Greek Wikipedia. It was deleted, as I can understand, because it was not encyclopedic. As Orgyn just said, it is a political party that has shown up in Greek political polls and seems to be a serious political party. I have noticed that sometimes some areas with self-made predictions about the possibility of the party winning votes in the next Greek election. That would be the only argument I would find for the argument that it is not encyclopedic. But you could be very right, I have noticed that the creator of this page, Αθλητικά, has been offline for quite some time and has not added or removed any content that is present in this article, such as the "fight" that Αθλητικά and I have been having about the changing of the political position of the party, he strongly believes that the party is right-wing only and not right-wing to far-right. Αθλητικά has also been offline during the same time that the sentencing for Ilias Kasidiaris, the founder of this party and former Golden Dawn MP who was recently sentenced along with other high-ranking Golden Dawn members, or could it be another person who was closely connected to Golden Dawn or Kasidiaris. It seems just a bit too much to be a coincidence. I'm not the one who wants to start a conspiracy theory but is the original author of this page, Αθλητικά, Ilias Kasidiaris? If so, then I believe that this page must be radically changed since it would violate Wikipedia guidelines. But not deleted, since it's still a party. Let me know if you think that I am crazy.--Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Greek article

Can please someone make this page in greek? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrangeMadness1979 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

It has been tried but some Greek contributors (admins?) are deleting the page as soon as it is created. Other splits from Golden Dawn have their own page (Εθνική Λαϊκή Συνείδηση, Πατριωτική Ριζοσπαστική Ένωση) so my guess is that the reason is political. — Orgyn (talk) 21:37, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Another ideological debate?

The party is clearly labelled by academics and journalists as extreme-right, ultranationalist and neo-nazi. Just because Kasidiaris said he is no longer neo-nazi, history and his involvement with the criminal organisation of Golden Dawn cannot be erased. If you have any sources that prove otherwise, please provide them. Please stop POVing Czello. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm only leaving in ideologies that explicitly use the labels that are in the infobox. Please don't accuse me of PoVing, when I'm doing the literal opposite. If you think your other labels are valid, please provide sources that explicitly state them, otherwise your edits are WP:OR. — Czello 12:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

From what I can see the unsourced ideologies are the following:

• Right-wing Populism
• Ultranationalism
• Euroscepticism
• Anti-globalization
• Russophilia

If you can find sources for these we can include — Czello 12:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Scratch Russophilia, I've found and added that. — Czello 13:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Are you sure "academics and journalists" have evidence for the 'neo-nazi' label? The argument: "one member had X ideology" does not equal "the whole party consisting of hundreds of members has X ideology". Unless such ideology is expressed and documented, it's merely an assumption or opinion.

As a personal note, I'd be rather careful with terms that can be considered defamatory, since they carry a maximum sentence of 5 years in prison (plus damages). As some journalists have recently found out, the law cuts both ways. Especially when defaming academics and high-ranking officers.

So, please quote the evidence proving the party (not a single person, mind you) is neo-nazi or neo-fascist. AkisAr-26 (talk) 16:45, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

lol, sure thing - that's not how it usually works especially when the leader of the party is a convincted neo-nazi for running a criminal organisation. Look at the academic sources for more, cheers NikolaosFanaris (talk) 18:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

"how it usually works" is not a valid argument. Do you have evidence? Do the supposed sources have them? If not, they are irrelevant and the article must be edited.

As an example, this source simply states as an opinion that it's "an attempt by Kasidiaris to disassociate from neo-Nazi ideology" and then assumes that Greeks for the Fatherland is neo-nazi. It contains zero evidence regarding the new party.

That's a logical fallacy:

1. Kasidiaris is allegedly a neo-nazi

2. He is in a party with generals and academics.

3. Therefore those generals and academics are neo-nazis too.

The burden of proof (neo-nazi label) lies on you. I have no obligation to disprove your claim. Please quote the relevant evidence from the sources for the neo-nazi label. If you can't because they don't exist, then the article has to be edited and any defamatory material must be removed immediately. AkisAr-26 (talk) 21:23, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) Greeks for the Fatherland was officially launched in 2019 and Ilias Kasidiaris happens to be the leader. So far so good. The majority of the reliable and academic sources, which cannot be disputed under any circumstances, clearly emphasise his involvement with Golden Dawn and all centre their questions around the same dimension - whether Kasidiaris has really disassociated/distances himself from neo-Nazism. The answer has not been given yet, hence the mention of his ties. Absolutely none of the sources concern any 'generals', 'academics' or generally members of the party. The one-man show is clearly run by Kasidiars (at least that's what reputable journalistic and academic sources focus on) and that is reflected on the article. The only exception is the case of that convicted man involved with the (ψεκασμένους) Thematofylakes tou Syntagmatos. The current debate about Kasidiaris' past and his involvement with the criminal neo-Nazi gang of Golden Dawn is fully backed in the current form of the article. (Personal attack removed) Cheers mate. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

It's really funny, however, that you are lying on the discussion page hoping that this could result in changes here to sugarcoat the article and remove truthful cats. To Vima still refers to Kasidiaris as neo-Nazi [1], Journal of Studies in Communication Studies refer to Kasidiaris' party as 'extreme-right' [2] (guess what extreme right means!), Huffington Post still refers to him and his party as neo-nazi [3], Anna Karakatsouli refers to the party again as 'extreme-right' [4]. The list goes on and on and the majority of journalistic sources clearly dispute the claim that Kasidiaris has distanced himself from neo-Nazism. Once a neo-Nazi, always a neo-Nazi. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 22:03, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

You are using a strawman; I didn't dispute Kasidiaris' past in Golden Dawn.

Also, claiming that I am lying is a rather heavy accusation. Can you back your accusation up in a clear and direct way? Let me quote what I said:

Are you sure "academics and journalists" have evidence for the 'neo-nazi' label?

So, what's your evidence, your facts that GreeksFTF is neo-nazi? Someone calling it that way? Those are called opinions. Please kindly quote the evidence from the so called sources. For example supportive statements or nazi-symbols by multiple other members. AkisAr-26 (talk) 22:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question - are you involved with Greek ΓΤΠ or not?

Also for a new member you seem to know WP's policy quite well. Are you using other accounts? If yes, it's a conflict of interest and also see WP:Sockpuppetry. The fact that you're not answering my question raises more suspicion. But since you like to play with words, I will refer you again to my previous analysis. The party is tied to extremism and neo-nazism because of Kasidiaris' past. According to most reliable and academic sources, the only notable member and main face of the party is Kasidiaris. No one else is mentioned or highlighted by any reputable sources. Only Kasidiars. That's what the sources claim. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

No, that's my first account. I've been reading WP quite a lot, so I'm familiar with it. No, no affiliation of any kind.

Let's summarize what you've told me:

1. "you are lying [..] to sugarcoat the article and remove truthful cats [sic]"

2. "[..] using other accounts? [..] see WP:Sockpuppetry"

3. "not answering my question raises more suspicion"

4. "attempt [..] to sugarcoat Kasidiaris' criminal past"

5. "you like to play with words"

May I kindly suggest that you refrain immediately from this behavior as per WP:PA? Please focus on events, facts and evidence when discussing about me. Not opinions.

Now to the point. You confirm my assumption that the so called sources have no evidence of 'neo-nazi' or 'neo-fascist'(?) behavior about the party. They suspect the party might be 'neo-nazi'. To revise the fallacy:

1. person A and person B are in the same group

2. person A believes X

3. therefore person B believes X

Going from 2. to 3. is a non-sequitur. Therefore, the term neo-nazi and neo-fascist(?) is not justified by facts regardless of whether 10 or 20 journalists (out of hundreds) reached the same fallacious conclusion. Please see Argument from authority.

Secondly, you said: "Journal of Studies in Communication Studies refer to Kasidiaris' party as 'extreme-right' [2] (guess what extreme right means!)" - no, I cannot guess. Please explain what you mean: Does 'extreme-right' mean 'neo-nazi'? If not, it has to be removed.

Thirdly, calling a party neo-nazi means that its members either:

1. are ok with neo-nazi ideology around them

2. are neo-nazis themselves

As per WP:LBL such content has to removed.

Conclusion: Edits are needed and opinions of journalists will be stated as such; not as facts. AkisAr-26 (talk) 07:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

No one cares what members of the party think about themselves or how the party perceives its political identity. We follow what the sources say. Its leader is a criminal, he is in jail for his association with the neo-Nazi gang of Golden Dawn and that's what the sources clearly state. Suspected ties to neo-Nazism of Έλληνες ΓΤΠ which was demonstrated in my edit right above will be assessed on a journalistic level after the next Greek general election. The link has been established, you are once again playing with words. Until then Greeks for the Fatherland, as seen also in the sources, are referred to as the ideological child of Kasidiaris. Any attempt to sugarcoat or reshape the article to remove those sources which clearly link its ideology to neo-Nazism, will be considered vandalism. Your comments on defamation are baseless. Apart from that, I bet this is not your first account on WP. What was your previous one? Since you're such an expert, see extremism to englighten yourself. In regards to conflict of interest, even this edit was another attempt to present a better performance of Greeks ΓΤΠ polling on WP, which is clear WP:POV. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Last warning. Do not accuse me of WP:Sockpuppetry. Do not attack my perceived motives. Please focus on the facts: what I've written.

To the point: you did not refute any of the arguments:

1. the non-sequitur

2. the fact the 'neo-nazi' label is an opinion of some sources, not based on evidence.

Being an opinion, it will be stated as an opinion. Not being a fact, it will not be stated as a fact. Edits will be made to comply with WP:NPOV:

This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.

AkisAr-26 (talk) 09:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Still playing with words. One last question, based on your previous edits on Greek WP which are focused exclusively on the party and its leader [1], are you 100% sure you are not associated with the party in any way? NikolaosFanaris (talk) 09:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid the vague "playing with words" won't do. You should enumerate every single mistake in my reasoning, if there is such. Which I doubt.

You did not address any of my points. Please feel free to do. As for your continued efforts to discuss about me ("associated with the party in any way?"), I'll kindly suggest that you avoid that as well, please. Thank you.

Attack my arguments, not my looks. AkisAr-26 (talk) 07:40, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources

One of the sources used in this article is huffingtonpost which has received a lot of criticism for allegedly promoting Alternative medicine and anti-vaccination controversy. I mean, they had posted an article titled Swine Flu: Protect Yourself and Loved Ones. To quote the article:

And it's my understanding that many people who took regular enemas instead of vaccines during the 1918 pandemic made it out on the other side as well.

Also, some sources describe its reporting as "MIXED" in terms of how factual it is. Isn't there a more reliable source to back the claims of this article? AkisAr-26 (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

In the section above, I clearly demonstrated how several sources establish the link between Greeks for the Fatherland ideology and possible ties to neo-Nazism. Don't remove the label which clarifies the ideological continuation, as it is clearly described, of the former Golden Dawn members. Agreed on the Huffington Post article - it can be removed if necessary. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 10:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

No, you did not prove anything. You failed to quote any of the sources' evidence, since they don't have any.

And I see you reverted my edit into the PoV previous version. On the bright side, we agree on HuffPost. AkisAr-26 (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts and promoting his heavy POV. To close this matter, here is the evidence of the party's ties to neo-Nazism:

1) The Spectator discusses the dangers of neo-Nazism in Greece after the fall of Golden Dawn, highlighting Greeks for the Fatherland as one of the reasons the danger has not gone away [1], 2) Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right (C-REX) sees Kasidiaris' admission of Golden Dawn's nazi ideology as a sign that the party attempting to disconnect itself from the ideology, but being unclear yet how this will be achieved [2], 3) In.gr describes Kasidiaris as a neo-Nazi politician who still embraces the ideology (worth mentioning that the author highligths how Kasidiaris still has the swastika tattoo on his arm!) [3]. For those interested in seeing that tattoo, please check it out here. 4) To Vima mentions that Kasidiaris and Greeks for the Fatherland are a neo-nazi threat to democracy and the parliament [4]. Finally, 5) NPR says that Greeks for the Fatherland shares similar ideology with Golden Dawn [5] The link has been established and it would be an act of vandalism to remove the clear connection between this relatively new party and Kasidiaris, the man who developed the neo-Nazi version of Golden Dawn. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 13:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm happy we found common ground on the sources.

I have a few small issues though. Could you explain why you removed my edit? It is rather obvious your version is inaccurate:

1. there was a single member in the incident

2. the article falsely said 'Members [..]'

3. I fixed it

4. you reverted it back to the false claim.

Please explain why. AkisAr-26 (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I see you reverted another edit of mine, commenting: "That's original research - if you find a media source that clearly states he left the party, then it's a yes." - But I didn't write he left the party. That's a textbook strawman. AkisAr-26 (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

If you find a source that clarifies this, then yes. If not, you cannot include the member list as evidence. It's your own research and not evidence from a 3rd source. It also puzzles me that you know the identity of the person, which was not made public. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 16:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Clarifies what? AkisAr-26 (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

That the person is no longer affiliated with the party - who cares if he was removed from the website, mate? Are you for real? This is an encyclopedia! Also, it's clear there is a conflict of interest here - what is your role with Greeks for the Fatherland? NikolaosFanaris (talk) 21:14, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to make it more simple than this:

a) I did not claim he was removed from the party.

b) My edit did not say that either. AkisAr-26 (talk) 21:27, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Are you involved with Greeks for the Fatherland? Yes or no? NikolaosFanaris (talk) 21:58, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I've already answered this 'question' of yours. I wouldn't consider it a question anymore, since you wrote:

To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts [...]

Please, stay focused on the topic discussed. Not me. AkisAr-26 (talk) 22:10, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

You keep reverting my edits. In one of your reverts you state: "Golden Dawn has been declared as a criminal organisation by courts. This is vandalism!"

Do you grasp the absurdity of their claim? (the media you cited). If it were true, anyone currently joining GD would get a minimum of 5 years in prison. The fact media repeat it shows how ignorant foreign media (along with some domestic) are.

Also, it's rather evident that you didn't read the WP article I quoted on my now reverted edit about WP's article on Golden Dawn. Also check the Talk Page. Do you see them calling it that? AkisAr-26 (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Are you involved with the party Greeks for the Fatherland? Are you working for them under any capacity? Yes or no? NikolaosFanaris (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Golden Dawn is not described as a criminal organization on its wikipage. Do you mind explaining why you edit it here as such while it's not described there? AkisAr-26 (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I take your silence on the matter as an indication of conflict of interest. From now on there is not much to discuss with a person who is clearly involved with this party and tries to push its agenda on Wikipedia. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 22:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Possible Conflict of Interest

(Personal attack removed) NikolaosFanaris (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

This could do with raising at WP:COIN. — Czello 22:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Czello - I just did that and also notified the involved user. NikolaosFanaris (talk) 23:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

You say here that I did not answer your question of whether I am affiliated with them or not.

You will find above the following words I said: "No, that's my first account. I've been reading WP quite a lot, so I'm familiar with it. No, no affiliation of any kind." (emphasis added).

You asked me again, and I responded: "I've already answered this 'question' of yours. I wouldn't consider it a question anymore, since you wrote: [...]"

You ignored both my answers.

Therefore, you lied.

The "threats" on your talk page, as you call them, were a last effort by me to solve this issue peacefully without the intervention of others through a WP:PA complaint. As a response to this you decided to:

1. not respond on your talk page

2. delete my post on your talk page

3. continue accusing me of being involved with the party, despite zero evidence

4. ignore my numerous pleas to refrain from baseless accusations

5. file a WP:COIN in which you continue accusing me

In a few days all issues will be fully addressed. I promise.

PS: I think you misunderstood my lack of free time, and think it's lack of will. AkisAr-26 (talk) 11:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) NikolaosFanaris (talk) 11:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

As per WP:PA baseless accusations have been removed as personal attacks. The COI was rejected by a mod[1].

WP:REFBOMB

Too many references distracts from the article. We don't need three and four references to support each and every factoid. HighKing⁺⁺ 13:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Distortion of facts

What previous edits show is that user AkisAr-26 wants to disassociate the party from its Islamophobic character and ties to Golden Dawn and neo-Nazism. The removal of essential and reliable sources is also an attempt to sugarcoat Kasidiaris, who is the only well-known politician of the party and has associated himself as the voice of Greeks for the Fatherland. 79.66.222.112 (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing this is NikolaosFanaris, back from the dead. You were blocked before for making accusations like these and generally not assuming good faith where it concerns other editors and their motivations. You even brought it to WP:COIN and the decision was that AkisAr-26 was not violating WP:COI. Do you have anything more substantive to bring to this talk page, other than personal attacks? — Czello 10:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)