Talk:NRL Under-20s

Name of the article

The official name of this competition has been revealed as the Toyota Cup, hence the move to Toyota Cup (rugby league). National Youth Competition, the generic working title that I used to create this article, was used simply because there was no official name or sponsor when it was first announced. Bongomanrae 12:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I just thought it would fit better alongside other precedents such as the Carling Cup, Telstra Premiership, Toyota Cup, Natwest Pro 40 League etc, but yes there really isn't another name that we could call it besides something generic so I guess leaving it with the sponsers name included is the best decision.Mattlore 22:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean. It's like the Gold Coast Titans new stadium Skilled Park. Its naming rights were sold off before it was even finished being built, so the only name for it is the sponsored name. It might be a bit unwieldy but we don't have any alternative. Bongomanrae 15:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

An article from the Sydney Roosters website calls the competition the "National Youth Competition." So it would seem that either the authors looked up the former unsponsored name from Wikipedia (as you had called it earlier) or you had a bloody good guess! Is this good enough reason to change the title of the page back to the NYC? mdmanser 07:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow that's a pretty cool coincidence! If that is the actual name of the unsponsored comp then yeah, we should move it back. Bongomanrae 08:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen a lot more sources call it the NYC over the last day or so, mostly in squad announcements for next year so I went ahead and moved it back. Bongomanrae 06:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The article has been moved again, this time to National rugby league youth competition. I propose we move it back to National Youth Competition or, failing that, to National Youth Competition (rugby league) as NYC is the actual name. Mattlore (talk) 04:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No response so going to move it to NYC (rl) for now Mattlore (talk) 02:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It should just be National Youth Competition. Specifying the sport isn't necessary as there are no other similarly named competitions. Bongomanrae (talk) 09:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The national youth competition first brings to mind performing arts competitions which have been around for donkeys years. Besides which, omitting the sport is confusing and comes across as arrogant. dramatic (talk) 09:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

If "National Youth Competition" redirects here why does this article have a bracketed disambiguator?--Jeff79 (talk) 10:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Coaches

Have any other teams announced coaches for 08? Mattlore 23:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Age limits

Two articles I have read on this topic have described as being a junior competition for under 20s, including the Herald sun at http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21546270-14823,00.html Would you consider a change to "The Toyota Cup is the official NRL Under 20s competition." Incidently, its interesting that such an announcement comes in the same week that the Melbourne Rebels are launched. Proberton 16:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

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Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move Parsecboy (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Because there is no National Youth Compeition article (it redirect to this article) it should be moved back, with this redirecting back to it.  The Windler talk  21:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone has just made one. Mattlore (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

That's just a dab page with only 2 links. It shouldn't be there per WP:DAB as unnecessary. If anything, a hatnote on this page to the Ukrainian group would be sufficient. This article should be put back where it was. Station1 (talk) 02:12, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

There are bound to be more such competitions. Leave the DAB as it is and let it grow. Andrewa (talk) 09:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

While a quick google does bring up the Toyota Cup first it also has results such as NZ Jazz, Writing and an Icelandic youth competition. I think we should leave it at NYC (rl) because a move back to NYC is only going to be short term. Mattlore (talk) 08:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NRL U20's

I don't know where it's ever referred to as the "National Youth Competition" which, as if it weren't already too long, necessitates the "(rugby league)" disambiguator, rendering it completely absurd. This is long overdue. "NRL U20s" appears on the logo itself. It is almost always referred to as such. Variants "NRL Under-20s" or "NRL Under 20s" could also be ok if people really wanna jump up and down about it.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 02:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources? All official sites seem to use NYC when they don't use the sponsors title, such as NRL stats[1], NRL press releases[2] and the NRL-run club websites [3], [4] as well as media organisations [5], [6]. Obviously National Youth Competition would be preferred and Holden Cup can be used for season articles, but moving to a title of abbreviations that doesn't seem to be widely used seems to be less than ideal. Mattlore (talk) 02:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I have to admit there's a stronger case for the status quo than I thought was possible. Nevertheless, I refuse to believe that the shortcomings of the name "National Youth Competition (rugby league)" are completely lost on you. You just feel bound to retain it because of its apparent "officialness". Fortunately, the criteria set out in the official policy at Wikipedia:Article titles free us of that obligation, and for good reason. Not only would "NRL U20s" (or some variant) match the official logo, it is immediately more descriptive of the article. "National Youth Competition (rugby league)" not only has the distinction of being excessively long, but extraordinarily un-descriptive. All those words/characters and still no reader can really be sure what the topic of the article is. It's because of this lack of precision that 100% of links to the article now must be piped, probably along the lines of [[National Youth Competition (rugby league)|NRL Under 20s]] anyway (naturalness). In headlines of news articles 'under 20s' is more commonly used than 'NYC' as it as it is more recognizable. In addition to being more concise, "NRL U20s" will also add consistency among similar articles: NRL All Stars, NRL Auckland Nines, NRL Grand final, etc.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 09:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. be careful how you use apostrophe's.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 09:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 06 December 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

National Youth Competition (rugby league) → NRL Under 20s – ...or NRL U20s (as it matches the official logo). These two options better fulfill all 5 criteria at Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title (as outlined in discussion above). The current name means that 100% of WP:Wikilinks have to be piped and appears only to have been retained thus far as per Wikipedia:Official names. Relisted. BDD (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC) Gibson Flying V (talk) 05:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose per WP:OR. The logo actually states "NRL Holden Cup U20s" as is referenced in the NRL rules[7]. Going through the categories on the article titles WP:CRITERIA; Recognizability would point us either to Holden Cup or NYC, as they are the two most common names used (per google [8][9][10] and news reports as I cited above). Naturalness would again point to Holden Cup or NYC. Precision would point us to NYC or NRL U20s, as both adequately describe the competition. Conciseness would point to Holden Cup. Consistency goes to National Youth Competition, as we use National Rugby League for the main article and not the sponsors name of Telstra Premiership. Moving from the official name of the competition to one of many lesser used colloquial names would not be a step forward. Mattlore (talk) 10:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• Renaming to Holden Cup isn't even on the table for obvious reasons. Regarding original research claims:

• toyota.com.au (12 April 2007). "TOYOTA KICKS OFF NRL UNDER 20s SPONSORSHIP". pressroom.com.au. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Fairfax (21 September 2008). "Under-20s set for Sydney face-off". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Jancetic, Steve (29 June 2009). "Four charged by NRL over under-20s brawl". Brisbane Times. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• AAP (4 October 2009). "Storm snatch NRL under 20s title". ABC News. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Heming, Wayne (11 May 2010). "Under-20s player stood down by Titans". Wide World of Sports. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Drewe, Ben (20 November 2012). "McGrady secures Bulldogs under 20s opportunity". The Toowoomba Chronicle. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• AAP (24 June 2013). "Under-20s rugby league brawlers face bans". The Age. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• AAP (2 July 2013). "NRL: Gold Coast name under-20s Jahrome Hughes and Hymel Hunt for key clash against Penrith". ABC News. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Honeysett, Stuart (27 August 2013). "Luke Brooks heads under-20s team of the year". The Australian. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• AAP (27 August 2013). "Holden Cup Under-20s team of the year named". Herald Sun. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Barclay, Chris (14 September 2013). "NZ Warriors Under-20s win first finals match". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Barclay, Chris (20 Sepember 2013). "NZ Warriors under-20s keep title hopes alive". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 December 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Tuxworth, Jon (29 September 2013). "Raiders under-20s overrun by Panthers". The Canberra Times. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• "Qld's Chris Butler to referee Under 20s GF". qrl.com.au. 1 October 2013. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• AAP (6 October 2013). "Penrith wins NRL under 20s premiership with victory over Warriors". ABC News. Retrieved 6 December 2013.
• Cooper, Adam (7 October 2013). "NRL: Junior Warriors fail to claim under-20s title". Radio Sport. Retrieved 6 December 2013.

I could go on.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Of those 15 links you found, only 2 of them use the phrase "NRL Under 20s" in the text. 1 uses a different combination (Under 20s NRL premiership), 5 refer to Toyota/Holden Cup (which I agree we can't use) and 7 generically use under 20s. I don't think that particularly strengthens the argument to move the page. Mattlore (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wow. So "National Youth Competition (rugby league)" is the single best name we can possibly come up with. Just... wow. I'm amazed.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I think the problem lies in that it's had a sponsor right from the start. NYC never had a chance to catch on, and Holden/Toyota Cup are dull, generic and uninformative names. So usage of U20s has emerged as useful shorthand.

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