Talk:National identity cards in the European Economic Area and Switzerland

Rename to European identity card(s)

Is there any consensus to renaming the article to 'European identity cards' or 'European identity card'? I put forward this idea as now the EU standard is relatively well-established and the corresponding article for Driving licences in the EEA is named 'European driving licence'. To have harmony between the two similar articles. Drumstick21 (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Some time ago, someone created a parallel European card page here on Wikipedia. We talked a bit on this kind of stuff (even about the European driving licence) and we decided to close the article and to point to this one, without renaming it. That's because any country gives a different meaning to this card for history and culture (and if you're European you know how different we are) and has its own way to issue it. The 2019 EU directives just suggest the path to a common model, but never mention a European card. In my opinion there's no need to rename, because it could be misleading for a non-European reader. But it's just my opinion, so I'm open to any kind of decision. Kroby36 (talk) 17:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a uniform format for the European driving licence. For the national identity cards there are only some common security features. That's a big difference. Furthermore, "national identity card" is the common name for it, not "European identity card". So no need to move any article. --Nablicus (talk) 17:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

While I agree, the current page name is too long. Perhaps a compromise name would be "National identity Cards in Europe" ZElsb (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Name of the article

The article was moved from the name National identity cards in the European Economic Area through

• European Union Identity Cards
• European Union National Identity Cards

to: National identity cards in the EFTA.

EFTA does not decide these rules on identity card, and is only four countries. There appears not to have been a discussion on this, only multiple users changing names. What shall the article be called? -- BIL (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say 'European identity card' to parallel the European driving licence article. Otherwise the older title 'Identity Cards in the European Economic Area' is the most appropriate.

Both 'European Union Identity Cards' and 'National identity Cards in the EFTA' are unsuitable as they do not describe the countries mentioned correctly. I don't understand why the name change has happened as the current name doesn't make any sense, and without discussion. Drumstick21 (talk) 14:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty tired of this topic. Whatever, the best way to face properly this kind of disrespectful attitude is to roll back to the original name of the article. The name will be changed only after talking about it on this page. Kroby36 (talk) 22:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree the current name makes no sense and technically only covers four countries. Revert to the stable National identity cards in the European Economic Area, the title before all of these constant moves. "European Economic Area" is the most inclusive and accurate, not EFTA. DankJae 21:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• Move to National identity cards in Europe, then add the few remaining countries. Classifying identity cards into EU, EFTA, EEA, non-EU-non-EFTA, etc., in article title makes zero sense for an average reader. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  That works too, or European national identity cards. However, the constant moves are starting to get disruptive, possible move protection or an RM? DankJae 11:16, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Putting a protection on the page is a good point. Kroby36 (talk) 13:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  We might prefer to keep "European identity card" for the hypothetical EU-issued id document. Although certain other wikis indeed use that exact wording for the counterpart article to this (es:Documento de identidad europeo, no:Nasjonalt ID-kort, uk:Європейське посвідчення особи). — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  The Spanish article (es:Documento de identidad europeo, which, by looking at the page history was created by translating the English wikipedia article European identity card, which has since been merged with this article (National identity cards in the European Economic Area)) is suggested merged with es:Documentos nacionales de identidad en el Espacio Económico Europeo (Google Translate translation: National identity documents in the European Economic Area), and the Norwegian one no:Nasjonalt ID-kort is named "Nasjonalt ID-kort" which translates to "National ID card". Megyeye (talk) 12:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC))

• Revert to the version from 17 May, before the renaming/moving started (ie changing the title back to National identity cards in the European Economic Area).

The user who moved the article also changed references in the article from EU/EEA and Switzerland to EU/EFTA. While covering the same countries, this is inaccurate. For instance, both the regulation concerning common standards (Regulation 2019/1157) and the freedom of movement directive (Directive 2004/38/EC) allowing citizens of the EU and EEA to travel with an ID card, applies to the EU members and the EEA (through incorporation into the EEA agreement).

Switzerland however has bilateral relations with EU, and between the other EFTA countries, the EFTA convention governs travel with an ID card. Megyeye (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Reverted. Kroby36 (talk) 09:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Re-name to "National Identity Cards in Europe"

While I agree with the points already made regarding the proposed change to "European Identity Cards", the current page name is too long and in some ways exclusionary as it focusses solely on the EEA and Switzerland.

I would propose re-naming the page to "National identity Cards in Europe" for the following reasons; a) it is more concise than at present, b) it respects and reinforces the points made against the proposed change to "European Identity Cards" by changing it's scope to one based on geography instead of politics at present - which reinforces the point made by Nablicus that the standards set by Regulation 2019/1157 are only a set of common technical standards instead of a common format (eg European driving licences), and c) through b, it allows for the inclusion of the national identity cards of non-EEA states, eg EU candidates and applicants in separate sections. ZElsb (talk) 05:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I would rather suggest moving this page to "National identity cards in/of the European Union". It is the EU that decides on the identity card standards, the right to move freely with a national identity card etc. The other EEA countries and Switzerland have chosen to implement those EU rules through intergovernmental agreements with the union, but national identity cards are still based on EU policy and rules. --Nablicus (talk) 07:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The use of as "in/of" is counter the main reason for my suggestion: to condense the name into something more coherent and readable.

Your framing of the political aspect is not entirely correct. Regulation 2019/1157 sets common technical standards, which is not the same as a common format, for example with respect to European driving licences. The non-EU EEA states did not choose to implement Regulation 2019/1157 as they were required to do so as it was designated as being of EEA relevance. Additionally, the EU does not mandate member states introduce national ID cards (see Denmark and the Republic of Ireland) which "of the EU" suggests. "In the EU" is also problematic as this page covers more than just EU member-states (EEA and Switzerland), with the relevant regulations being EEA relevant, not EU-specific. I do not think it is appropriate to qualify the page with "in/of the EU", especially when the proposal to change the name to "European Identity Cards" was rejected for similar reasons. ZElsb (talk) 11:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the EEA states have chosen to implement certain legal acts of the EU through the EEA agreement. I believe the article would be better if it focuses on the rules and rights associated with national identity cards governed by EU law. There are many types of identity cards issued by both EU countries and non-EU countries, so the scope would be very broad if one widens it to include all kinds of identity cards issued by European countries. --Nablicus (talk) 07:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

No one is suggesting the page's scope be widened to include all identity cards in Europe. As the proposed name suggests, the scope would remain unchanged, ie National identity cards.

The page at the moment isn't focussed on the rights associated with national identity cards, as the right to freedom of movement and establishment is completely separate from national identity cards. ZElsb (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

As national identity cards are described in the article, it is a concept constructed within the EU/EEA/Switzerland. And yes, the article clearly states, e.g., that the purpose of these cards is to facilitate the right to free movement of people. That is the whole point of this category of identity cards and the reason why this type of card is a common concept within the EU/EEA/Switzerland. No such common concept exists within Europe as a whole. For other countries, there are numerous of different kinds of identity cards, that have very little in common. By contrast, national identity cards within EU/EEA/Switzerland have common purposes, security details, some common rules for how they are issued etc. And yes, these cards are closely related to facilitating the free movement of people within the EU, by making it easier to verify the EU citizenship of a person and thereby their right to free movement. So no, the freedom of movement is not "completely separate" from national identity cards, even if the latter of course is not a pre-requisite for the former. --Nablicus (talk) 09:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support, as this is my proposal anyway (see above section). Article will need to be expanded with European countries not part of EEA/CH, such as Albania, Liechtenstein, Serbia, Russia, etc. Naturally, title should be in a sentence case. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, I didn’t see your proposal beforehand.

  Indeed, the article could, and I believe should, be expanded to include non-EEA European states. ZElsb (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Which countries should be included? Europe is different depending on the geographical, political and cultural point of view. I'm sure there will be a constant and annoying disagreement among us. Kroby36 (talk) 07:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there even a uniform definition of national identity cards outside of the EU/EEA/Switzerland? It has a certain meaning within EU law (an official identity card essentially stating the nationality (and thereby the EU citizenship) of an EU citizen), but it is unclear to me if this concept really exists outside EU law. I noticed that in the Wikipedia article on national identity cards, national identity cards are given a much broader definition. It is essentially defined as just an identity card issued by an official authority, with no requirement that it states the nationality of the person. Under such a definition, many types of identity cards would be classified as national identity cards also within the European Union. We could of course have an article discussing and listing different types of identity cards in Europe. But what is special with national identity cards of the EU is that they are subject to certain rules set by the EU and associated also with certain rights for the holder to move freely over the intra-EU borders without a passport. I think these provisions are important enough to motivate a Wikipedia article on their own (as is currently the case). --Nablicus (talk) 07:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

ICAO Doc 9303 Type 1 documents establishes basic requirements for said docs to be used as travel documents, including specifying the holder's nationality. All national identity cards issued in Europe - including non-EU/EEA/EFTA states - conform to those standards.

The national aspect of "National Identity Card" specifically delineates them from other forms of ID that do not state the holder's nationality. The Wiki page you link does not give such a broad definition as you suggest. This can be seen the UK and New Zealand entries, which are listed as having no identity card, despite them both issuing other forms of ID by official authorise (PASS cards, driving licences, residence permits etc). The entry for Denmark, which issues identity cards that do not state holders nationality are explicitly stated as being "Non-national". Additionally, the examples listed in the page are limited to citizens only, which strongly suggests that some indication of nationality is given on the card. ZElsb (talk) 09:37, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but those common standards are not unique for (national) identity cards in Europe. What would such a Wikipedia page add in addition to the current list of national identity cards in the world?

Well, in the lead of that Wikipedia article at least, it is defined as "A national identity document is an identity card with a photo, usable as an identity card at least inside the country, and which is issued by an official authority." But sure, if we agree that this definition is wrong and that national identity cards are defined as official identity cards stating the nationality of the holder, then I still don't see any reason why we should have a Wikipedia article on such cards in Europe. They do not have anything more in common than national identity cards in other parts of the world. By contrast, national identity cards of the EU/EEA/Switzerland actually are subject to certain common rules, defined by EU law. And these cards can be used to easily exercise the free movement of people. There are plenty of things to describe in this field which motivates a separate Wikipedia article, as is currently the case.

I think the situation is completely anologous to why we have a separate article on Passports of the European Union. Sure, there are some common ICAO standards for all passports, but EU passports are subject to some extra EU provisions and this motivates a separate Wikipedia article dealing with this particular concept/phenomenon. --Nablicus (talk) 09:41, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The difference between EU passports and EEA national ID cards is that the former is quite clearly limited to EU member-states (who all issue passports) and the latter applies to the EEA as a whole. (where national ID card issuance is not universal). The fact that national ID card standards are set by EEA regulation does not mean they are completely analogous to EU passports.

Either way, the current page name is far too cumbersome and needs to be revised. ZElsb (talk) 07:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel as though the title 'European identity card' could imply that it includes driving licenses, especially where they do not have their own ID card for travel purposes (UK, Denmark and maybe Ireland). This is because DL are in a credit card format, like with the ID card. UK dricing licenses may be used to travel to Ireland by boat or plane. However, as only UK, EEA and Swiss citizens have the freedom of movement in Ireland, a passport is recommended for non UK/EEA/CH citizens instead of a DL. In other words, despite our Common Travel Area, in a similar vein to Schengen Area, UK visas are often not valid to Ireland and vice versa. Meanwhile, a Schengen visa (including resident permits) allow you to visit other Schengen states for up to 90 days. Ryanair is known for requiring passports or ID cards, even for flights from London - Edinburgh/Belfast.

Russia on the other hand, has its own national ID document, but in a passport format, hence the Internal passport of Russia. The term 'national identity document' is the one that includes those issued in a card or passport format. I think their internal passport cannot be used for travel internationally, including Europe since a visa would likely also be required even vor visiting anyway. JuniperChill (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support, of course (but with proper capitalisation), as it is an expansion of my earlier proposal[1]. A typical reader will likely be interested in the concept of an identity card in geographical Europe foremostly, rather than just in countries being members of specific intergovernmental organisations. So, apart from a rename, we'd need to add information about identity cards in such countries as Andorra, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Liechtenstein, Moldova, Monaco, North Macedonia, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Vatican, and perhaps a few others. An interesting project! — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)