Talk:Nationalist Party (Northern Ireland)

Untitled

The article on politics.ie/wiki was written by me.--padraig3uk 15:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the Northern Ireland Social and Political Archive, this was an actual political party that had won mulitiple seats in the Northern Ireland House of Commons in the 20th Centery. [1] --Oakshade 15:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

They were formed after the partition of Ireland from the Northern Ireland members of the Irish Parliamentry Party, they would otherwise be refered to as the Nationalist party.--padraig3uk 15:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Article should be merged into Nationalist Party

What is the justification for having this article when there is already an article on Nationalist Party (Ireland) which it simply duplicates the content of? Furthermore where are the sources that say that there was such a thing as the 'National Party' ?? In virtually every reliable source including CAIN [2] , Nicholas Whyte's elections site [3] , the two books on the 1973 local elections by James Knight and Sidney Elliott and most important of all, the official 1973 results sheets themselves, the candidates are described as 'Nationalist Party'. Accordingly I would suggest that this page be merged into that (there's hardly anything different on here anyhow) with appropriate notes/redirects if necessary to say that in some sources they were called National Party (references needed.) Valenciano 09:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

There has never been a political party called the Nationalist party, the term was just a genetic term used for Irish politicans who where nationalist ranging from independents, the Home Rule league, the Irish Parliamentary Party, etc.--padraig3uk 11:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

So you've said, but I've given you sources above that show that they certainly contested elections under the label Nationalist Party. In contrast I can't find any reference to "National Party of Northern Ireland" so this does cast doubt on your statement. So you do need to provide citations. You might also like to see the discussion on the Nationalist Party (Ireland) page. Valenciano 11:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

They where commonly refered to as the Nationalist Party, so was the Home Rule League and the Irish Parliamentry Party but none of them where called that, do you propose to merge all these into one article because journalists and writers all refer to them as the Nationalist Party, even though they are different organisations.--padraig3uk 11:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

They described themselves as the Nationalist Party and stood as such in the 1973 elections. Chiefly, what I'm asking is where have you got 'National Party of Northern Ireland' from? It doesn't represent either the orgs self description or journalists descriptions. So at the very least, as has been suggested elsewhere [4] this article should be renamed 'Nationalist Party (Northern Ireland). However I would still suggest that this article should be merged with the other one with a mention there that the Home rule league and IPP were incorrectly named by journos. Valenciano 12:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See 'Modern Irish History Since 1800 - the Longman handbook of. ISBN 0 582 08102 5 there are other references but that is the only one I have at hand at present. Your missingthe point nationalist party was a term used to discribe all these parties but none of them where ever officially named as such.--padraig3uk 12:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that book is the only example of the name in use turned up by Google Books. Any other examples would be very useful. Warofdreams talk 18:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The Nationalist Party or Irish Nationalist Party is just a genetic name used to discribe many different parties and organisation through the years, much in much the same way as Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party are referred to as Nationalists at present rather than their correct title.--padraig3uk 18:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

National Party of Northern Ireland → Nationalist Party (Northern Ireland) — As the discussion elsewhere on this page shows, no contemporary evidence that the party ever described itself as the "National Party" or were described as such. Rather, the party described itself and was described by others as the Nationalist Party. The term Northern Ireland in brackets is required to indicate where this organisation was active. —Damac 18:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support. For the reasons outlined above and elsewhere on this page.Damac 18:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support - the organisation does not appear to have ever used "National Party of Northern Ireland" as its official name, but even if it had, we should use the common name. Warofdreams talk 18:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support as per above. Also see the following which quotes their leader Cahir Healey and numerous other members describing organisation as 'The Nationalist Party' [5] and these pages from the Stormont parliament archives where then contemporary politicians such as Brian Faulkner refer to meetings with the 'Nationalist Party' [6] [7] Valenciano 18:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
• oppose The proper name of the party should be used for political parties, not common terms used by the media, the use of the term Nationalist Party is and can be explained in the text of the article, also most references to the term refer to the Irish Parliamentry Party. Also the term was used in Northern Ireland to refer to Independent Nationalists as well.--padraig3uk 18:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Could padraig3uk please provide evidence that the party used the name "National Party of Northern Ireland"? I have provided evidence that the organisation referred to itself as the "Nationalist Party" and published a document under that name. Check out the Linen Hall library, where you'll find publications issued by the "Nationalist Party" in Belfast. Here's one[8] published between 1967 and 1973.--Damac 19:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I did provide a reference to the use of the name See 'Modern Irish History Since 1800 - the Longman handbook of. ISBN 0 582 08102 5 what has to be remembered is that the party was really just a collection of independents with no real party structure, which is why some of its members left to form the National Democrats when their attempts to implement reforms to bring about proper party structures failed.--padraig3uk 19:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The Longman reference is not what I'm looking for. It was published in 2005; I've found a primary reference in the Linen Hall that shows that a booklet was issued by the "Nationalist Party" in Belfast in the late 1960s.

I'm aware of the very fluid nature of the term "Nationalist Party". Yet, I don't see how your insistence on "National Party" expresses that this was more a label than an organisation. Our task here must be to establish what people called themselves, rather than what one textbook published three decades after the demise of an organisation refers to.

One way to start is to read this account of Cahir Healy's life and to start articles on all the parties and groupings mentioned in it.

For your one reference, many more have been provided that refer to the NP as the Nationalist Party. Why is a 2005 Longman book more authoratative than CAIN or the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland for example?--Damac 21:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Searching on Google Books for references to the group during the relevant period Nationalist Party gives quite a few examples, while National Party doesn't bring up anything relevant. Warofdreams talk 22:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Given that no evidence has been forthcoming, can we now go ahead and rename this Nationalist Party? Valenciano 21:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes!!--Damac 22:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from National Party of Northern Ireland to Nationalist Party (Northern Ireland) as the result of a move request. Please do not attempt to move pages by cutting and pasting them; this only creates problems for later, and destroys the page history which is vital for licensing reasons. Where admin assistance is needed for a move, it cannot (sadly) be circumvented, because admin assistance is also needed to sort out cut-and-paste moves. --Stemonitis 06:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)