Talk:Navigation light

Spacecraft

Spacecraft? Could somebody put in an example? --Willy888 22:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Science Fiction stories?--- Safemariner 03:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: The Dragon spacecraft satellite illustration appears to reverse the red-port green-starboard convention IF the conical ship portion with docking collar is the nose. Can someone check on their convention? JOthersky (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

If it is being viewed from "below" (whatever that might mean) then the lights are correct. Viewed from "above" and you are right. There doesn't appear to be a window visible, so my guess is it is viewed from "below". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Not just science fiction. Real-world spacecraft such as Apollo used colored running navigation lights. This was not moot as the lunar landing flights involved two spacecraft which had to visually rendezvous. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:27, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Stationary aeronautic lights

They can be found at Aircraft landing lights. 84.173.242.214 15:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge

{{Mergeto}} I suggest a move to vehicle lighting (at the moment still named 'automotive lighting') to expand the scope of the article (to all vehicles, not just ground vehicles). In addition, I suggest merging the navigation light article into this Vehicle lighting article, as most vehicles that emit navigation lights also emit these to increase the viewing distance. This remark is also true in the reverse direction; lights used to increase the view distance can also immediatly function as navigation lights.

I would like to note a small issue however that can perhaps be included to the article; air, sea and ground vehicles use different colors for as their navigation/view lights. It would be most suitable if they all used a same color pattern; perhaps that a altered maritime lighting pattern would be best; namely:

• Right side of the vehicle: red light
• Left side of the vehicle: green light
• Back of the vehicle: white light
  • Oppose. The Automotive lighting article is extremely long — not problematically so, given the variety of lighting functions on an automobile and the complexity of regulations, etc. — but very long nevertheless, even with the existing references to other articles on certain topics such as DRLs. Adding trains, planes, snowmobiles, boats, etc. would make it so long as to be completely unwieldy. Whether or not the merge takes place, your idea to alter the colour conventions to make them the same for all vehicles is well beyond the remit of this present project, which is to write an encyclopædia describing the world as it is — not to advocate for changes to make the world the way we might think it should be. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C14:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Oppose and removed the template. In addition to the point above navigation lights at sea differ very much from the lights on road vehicles. E.g. the viewing distance is usually diminished, not augmented by the navigation lights. --LPfi (talk) 10:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• • Oppose. Automotive lighting is considerably different from Aviation and Nautical lighting. There are no standard usage of red and green lights in automotive and there is no strobes, or trailing white lights, the white lights when backing up is ONLY used when backing up and is to be off when traveling forwards. Unlike Aviation of Nautical where this is on all the time. Also you suggestion of Red on Right side of the vehicle is incorrect. When ever you define the location of anything in any vehicle it is always from the perspective of the operator (Pilot, Captain, Driver) of the vehicle. The Red light is in the left (Port) side of the vehicle. You may have been confused with "Red on Right, Return" which indicates if the Red light is on the Right the vehicle or vessel is Returning (Approaching) Youfrom your perspective. You would have to flip left and right to get the perspective of the pilot, captain, or driver. -- JJN1991 (talk) 09:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Ships that Pass in the Night

This does not reference the fact that the whole purpose of the lights is to standardize the pattern of ships going opposite directions in the seaway. In the Eastern Hemisphere, roughly, from the British practice, ships pass each other (not overtaking, I'm referring to going in opposite directions here) such that standing on the starboard side of the ship (where the green light is), you see the other ship passing on the right, and see its green light on its starboard side closest to you. But in the Western Hemisphere, including Latin American nations, Canada, and the British West Indies, when you stand on the port side of the ship (where the red light is), you see the port side of the passing ship with its own red light closest to you.

When the US ruled the Philippines, they expanded the usage of the latter method to that archipelago ; when the US defeated Japan, they expanded usage to that archipelago ; there were also some US units in South Korea, and much cargo had to be shipped there during the Korean War, so as far as I know, the latter method was expanded there as well. The original British method began the notion of Green Means Go, and Red Means Stop ; the American method is contrary.

A handy tip that American sailors learned was the phrase "Right-Red-Returning" such that when coming into port, the navigation lights on the buoys around a harbor - yes, they were red on ship's port side and green on the ship's starboard side when leaving port - would line up to match the phrase. 74.94.150.197 (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The above struck out as dangerously wrong. The IP is mixing up buoyage which does differ (IALA regions "A" and "B") with sailing rules which do not differ: "when both lights you see ahead, starboard your wheel and show your red" - quote from an Admiralty manual for seamen c. 1945. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Aircraft external lights

The navigation lights article does a perfectly cromulent job of covering the topic of lights on the outside of vessels that travel by sea and air. I would only propose bringing the links over from aircraft external lights in that it does a better job of linking to specific light types. 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 09:16, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, merger looking more likely in the next few days, unless someone has anything else to add. Abcjake (talk) 09:22, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Completed merger- I still recommend changes under 'Aviation', some coherence is necessary. I'll probably come back soon to fix that. Abcjake (talk) 10:08, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I created the page Aircraft external lights because I was unaware this one existed. SomeRandomUserGuy (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Something needs to change

'Cause the article never passed review. Rhadow (talk) 16:16, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Lead

I'm suggesting revamping the lead. The first paragraph is a reasonable lead, but the second meanders a bit and repeats much that follows. If I don't see any objections by the end of the week I'll be WP:BOLD. My suggested lead is:

A navigation light, also known as a running or position light, is a source of illumination on a vessel, aircraft or spacecraft. Navigation lights give information on a craft's position, heading, and status. Their placement is mandated by international conventions or civil authorities. Navigation lights are not intended to provide illumination for the craft making the passage, only for other craft to be aware of it.

 Done Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Flashing Yellow Lights

“Hovercraft at all times and some boats operating in crowded areas may also carry a yellow flashing beacon for added visibility during day or night.”
That is NOT the rule. Not in any way, shape, or form. navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule24 This is the rule both inland and international; Only certain vsls, when pushing ahead, have a special rule just for them (the use of a special flashing light). Someone is going to get KILLED if they have a yellow light arranged “just to be scene,” except it’s not going to be them that dies but the guy that gets out of their way thinking they’re towing and turns right into the path of another vsl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.197.7.66 (talk) 00:36, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Rule 24 of the colregs does not mention flashing lights at all. Specifically it requires masthead lights (steady white), sidelights (steady red/green), sternlight (steady white) and towing light (steady yellow). Rule 23(b) states that: "An air-cushion vessel when operating in the non-displacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light" and (c) that: "A WIG craft only when taking off, landing and in flight near the surface shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit a high intensity all-round flashing red light." Navigation authorities may, under rule 1(b), also require other vessels to carry flashing yellow lights - for instance high speed vessels on the Thames in London carry a flashing yellow beacon. Your source (Rule 24: Towing and pushing) refers to "and a special flashing light [Inld]". The italics indicate that this is not part of the international regulations, and additionally the "[Inld]" emphasises that this only applies to "vessels upon the inland waters of the United States, and to vessels of the United States on the Canadian waters of the Great Lakes to the extent that there is no conflict with Canadian law", as permitted by colreg rule 1(b). Indeed, courses for skippers may mention that flashing lights at the stern may actually be steady lights with a flag flapping over them - beware! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

… I wasn’t aware of flags to make the light “flash” (that would be an instructor looking forward to retirement I suppose, I would ask you to report such a GROSSLY negligent at best instructor to HIS regional Coast Guard Sector), but in any case is not some “general purpose” light, the flashing yellows are for pushing ahead, to exclusion.

(24 does mention steady yellow sternlights for towing.) The applicable rule [[1]] copied and pasted (italics kept from original because I’m not sure what significance they have):
RULE 24: TOWING AND PUSHING
(f) Provided that any number of vessels being towed alongside or pushed in a group shall be lighted as one vessel, except as provided in paragraph (iii) [Inld]
a vessel being pushed ahead, not being part of a composite unit, shall exhibit at the forward end, sidelights, and a special flashing light [Inld];
a vessel being towed alongside shall exhibit a sternlight and at the forward end, sidelights, and a special flashing light [Inld];
when vessels are towed alongside on both sides of the towing vessels a sternlight shall be exhibited on the stern of the outboard vessel on each side of the towing vessel, and a single set of sidelights as far forward an as far outboard as is practicable, and a single special flashing light [Inld];
Saying “some boats operating in crowded areas may also carry a yellow flashing beacon for added visibility during day or night” is like telling them to ignore a stopsign; first jackass that sees this and puts a special flashing light (slow-speed flashing yellow light, typically the same type used at road construction sites because the early ones were stolen from such sites) to “be safe” in a “crowded” situation is going to get someone killed.
This not merely a semantic matter, people navigate based on those lights, telling others to specifically break the rules creates a real and imminent threat to all concerned. There is however, another element, which has just come to my attention; Alongside tows shall now have the Special Flashing Light per Rule 24 (f) (iii), so perhaps that should be included as well… — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.197.7.66 (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed words "may" and "beware". It happens, so if you see flashing, stop and think. The flashing may be genuine or it may be a misinterpretation. (BTW, "regional Coast Guard Sector" is a US-specific term, within the UK the MCA would be a more appropriate body.) Copying rule 24 may help others reading this, you'll probably gather that I took the trouble to look up your reference, and as I pointed out you are including US inland rules in an international situation. The international regulation says:

Rule 24 : Towing and pushing>br>

(f) Provided that any number of vessels being towed alongside or pushed in a group shall be lighted as one vessel,

(i) a vessel being pushed ahead, not being part of a composite unit, shall exhibit at the forward end sidelights;

(ii) a vessel being towed alongside shall exhibit a sternlight and at the forward end, sidelights.

Now for the differences:

", except as provided in paragraph (iii) [Inld]" - The [Inld] indicates that this applies to the inland waters of the USA only.

and a special flashing light [Inld];" - Likewise US-specific.

and a special flashing light [Inld];" - again inland only

"when vessels are towed alongside on both sides of the towing vessels a sternlight shall be exhibited on the stern of the outboard vessel on each side of the towing vessel, and a single set of sidelights as far forward an as far outboard as is practicable, and a single special flashing light [Inld];" - yet again inland only.

I must re-emphasise the importance of closely reading all the rules and understanding any departures from international standards. Small boats in the USA may rarely navigate abroad but elsewhere in the world it is common for yachts and merchantmen to travel internationally. Rule 1(b) of the international regulations states: "Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.". On this basis the competent US authorities are permitted to establish the additions marked as "[Inld]", but they are not a part of the international regulations. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:41, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Precis of Rule 31 of the Port of London, Thames Byelaws 2012:

Rule 23(b) of the International Collision Regulations (which requires an all-round flashing yellow light to be exhibited ... applies to:

a) a hydrofoil ...

b) any non-emergency service ... to which byelaw 16.3(a) [search & rescue &c] ... while that vessel exceeds a speed of 12 knots ...

c) any vessel to which byelaw 16.3(d) [having a special certificate] applies, while that vessel exceeds 12 knots ...

d) an air-cushion vessel ...

So here is an example of a flashing yellow light being used to warn of high speed craft. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)