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Talk:Neal D. Barnard

Latest comment: 12 days ago by Avgeekamfot in topic RFC on adding at least a few books
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Update and new sources proposed for article on Neal D. Barnard

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Latest comment: 8 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Hi, I’d like to suggest some updates and corrections. I would be most grateful if independent editors would consider these proposals given that I have a conflict of interest. I am an employee of Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, where Neal Barnard is the president. I very much appreciate your time and efforts in giving these requests your attention.

Item 1: In the Early life and education section, please replace the second sentence with the two sentences proposed below. The existing sentence’s source does not support all the facts in the sentence. The proposed new sentences are accurate, based on reliable sources, and contain relevant details which are missing in the current version.

Existing second sentence:

He received his medical training degree at George Washington University School of Medicine and completed his residency at the same institution in psychiatry, where he began to explore vegan diets.[1]

Suggested new sentences:

He received his medical degree at George Washington University School of Medicine in 1980.[2][3] He also completed his residency at the same institution.[4]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Vancouver Sun, 26 Dec 2001: 

Neal Barnard said that when he graduated from medical school at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. in 1980, almost all U.S. schools used animals.

Item 2:

In the Neal D. Barnard#Career section, please replace the first two sentences in the second paragraph, which are based on questionably reliable sources. I propose replacing these with the following two sentences that are more accurate and fully supported by better sources.

Existing sentences:

Barnard serves as an Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine.[5] He founded the Barnard Medical Center in 2015 as part of PCRM, and it opened in 2016 with him as president; the center provides primary care and emphasizes diet and preventive medicine.[6][7]

Suggested new sentences:

By 2003,[8] Barnard was serving as an adjunct professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, a position he still held as of April 2022.[9] In January 2016,[10] Barnard founded the Barnard Medical Center in Washington, D.C.,[11] which provides primary care with a focus on nutrition guidance.[12]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Courier Journal (Louisville, KY), 21 Aug 2003, Page G1: 

"When you understand that it's chemistry at work, you can stop blaming yourself and start getting on a path that really will solve the problem better than blame will," Barnard, an adjunct associate professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, said in an interview.

Item 3: Please add a new “Research” section to this article. This will help to improve the organization and structure of the article.

Item 4: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new first paragraph about a study by Barnard concerning the relationship between diet and menstrual pain. I have provided the secondary source describing the study, as well the WP:PRIMARY citation to the study. The study has been cited 119 times according to Scopus. [1] Scopus is one of the two citation metrics databases acceptable for counting citations, according to WP:Notability (academics)#Citation metrics.

Suggested new sentences:

Barnard conducted a randomized control trial, the results of which were published in 2000, that investigated if a low-fat vegetarian diet helped reduce menstrual pain in research participants.[13] His study found that among participants, a low-fat vegetarian diet was associated with higher sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) concentration, and lower pain,[14] although a 2006 review paper by Proctor and Farquhar argued that the study’s results were not “conclusive” because there were only 33 participants in it.[13]

Item 5: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph. The study discussed in the paragraph below has been [2] 264 times, according to Scopus. The sentences are sourced with two reliable peer-reviewed sources in high impact factor journals: New England Journal of Medicine and Obesity Reviews.

Suggested new sentences:

In a 2006 study on vegan diets and patients with type 2 diabetes,[15][16] Barnard found that participants randomly selected into the vegan diet group[15] showed improved optimization of glycemic control and lipid control measures[17][16] after 22 weeks compared to the control group, which instead received a diet based on American Diabetes Association guidelines.[18][19]

Item 6: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph about a paper Barnard published in JAMA that critiques misuse of meta-analyses in the nutrition and epidemiology field. The paper has been influential in methodology and policy discussions, evidenced in its being in the 99th percentile in Scopus citation measures.

Suggested new sentences:

In 2017, Barnard critiqued the way that meta-analyses were used in nutrition research at that time, in a paper he co-authored in JAMA.[20] He argued that meta-analysis techniques, while increasingly relied upon in policies and diet guidelines,[21] often have shortcomings[22] because they are prone to the same biases as the studies they are based on.[23][24]

Item 7:

Please move the following from Career to a new section entitled “Personal Life”.

Barnard plays cello, guitar, and keyboards, and has been a member of the bands Pop Maru, Verdun, and Carbonworks.[25][26]

Thank you again for your kind consideration. PaperHydrate (talk) 21:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Theiss, Evelyn (April 19, 2011). "Author Dr. Neal Barnard encourages plant-based, vegan diet". Cleveland Plain Dealer.
  2. ^ Read, Nicholas (26 December 2001). "UBC stands nearly alone in using live lab animals: Many medical schools in Canada and the U.S. no longer tolerate the practice". The Vancouver Sun.
  3. ^ Theiss, Evelyn (April 19, 2011). "Author Dr. Neal Barnard encourages plant-based, vegan diet". Cleveland Plain Dealer.
  4. ^ O'Grady, Aimee. "Dr. Neal Barnard Hits the High Notes on the Topic of Diabetes". msdc.org. Retrieved 20 March 2023.
  5. ^ "Distinguished Lifestyle Medicine Awards Recipients," American College of Lifestyle Medicine, accessed 8 November 2017.
  6. ^ "President, Barnard Medical Center". PCRM. Retrieved 22 August 2017.
  7. ^ "About the Barnard Medical Center". The Physicians Committee. Retrieved 22 August 2017. The Physicians Committee has opened the Barnard Medical Center as a means of providing state-of-the-art care and exploring innovative ways to help patients regain and protect their health.
  8. ^ Carter, Darla (21 August 2003). "Some foods are addictive, author says". Courier Journal (Loiusville, KY).
  9. ^ Courtland, Milloy (19 April 2022). "In a season of rebirth, Veg Fest means new life". Washington Post. Retrieved 20 March 2023.
  10. ^ Carroll, Suzanne (13 October 2016). "Fargo-Moorhead Vegfest picking up steam". High Plains Reader. Retrieved 3 April 2023.
  11. ^ Kamila, Avery Yale (10 May 2017). "Filmmakers probe industry ties to health charities in 'What the Health?'". Portland Press Herald. Retrieved 31 March 2023.
  12. ^ Downs, Jere (23 September 2016). "McDonald's closing at children's hospital". The Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY). Retrieved 20 March 2023.
  13. ^ a b Proctor M, Farquhar C (2006). "Diagnosis and management of dysmenorrhoea". BMJ. 332 (7550): 1134–8. doi:10.1136/bmj.332.7550.1134. PMC 1459624. PMID 16690671.
  14. ^ Yamamoto A, Harris HR, Vitonis AF, Chavarro JE, Missmer SA (2018) A prospective cohort study of meat and fish consumption and endometriosis risk. Am J Obstet Gynecol 219 (2):178.e1-178.e10. DOI:10.1016/j.ajog.2018.05.034 PMID: 29870739
  15. ^ a b Zeng BT, Pan HQ, Li FD, Ye ZY, Liu Y, Du JW (2023) Comparative efficacy of different eating patterns in the management of type 2 diabetes and prediabetes: An arm-based Bayesian network meta-analysis. J Diabetes Investig 14 (2):263-288. DOI:10.1111/jdi.13935 PMID: 36514864
  16. ^ a b Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, Smith SR, Ryan DH, Anton SD; et al. (2009). "Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates". N Engl J Med. 360 (9): 859–73. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa0804748. PMC 2763382. PMID 19246357.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Review in: Evid Based Nurs. 2009 Oct;12(4):109
  17. ^ Salehin S, Rasmussen P, Mai S, Mushtaq M, Agarwal M, Hasan SM | display-authors=etal (2023) Plant Based Diet and Its Effect on Cardiovascular Disease. Int J Environ Res Public Health 20 (4):. DOI:10.3390/ijerph20043337 PMID: 36834032
  18. ^ Termannsen AD, Clemmensen KKB, Thomsen JM, Nørgaard O, Díaz LJ, Torekov SS; et al. (2022). "Effects of vegan diets on cardiometabolic health: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials". Obes Rev. 23 (9): e13462. doi:10.1111/obr.13462. PMC 9540559. PMID 35672940.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  19. ^ Barnard ND, Cohen J, Jenkins DJ, Turner-McGrievy G, Gloede L, Jaster B; et al. (2006). "A low-fat vegan diet improves glycemic control and cardiovascular risk factors in a randomized clinical trial in individuals with type 2 diabetes". Diabetes Care. 29 (8): 1777–83. doi:10.2337/dc06-0606. PMID 16873779.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  20. ^ Brown AW, Kaiser KA, Keitt A, Fontaine K, Gibson M, Gower BA; et al. (2021). "Science dialogue mapping of knowledge and knowledge gaps related to the effects of dairy intake on human cardiovascular health and disease". Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 61 (2): 179–195. doi:10.1080/10408398.2020.1722941. PMC 7434715. PMID 32072820.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  21. ^ Tobias DK, Wittenbecher C, Hu FB (2021). "Grading nutrition evidence: where to go from here?". Am J Clin Nutr. 113 (6): 1385–1387. doi:10.1093/ajcn/nqab124. PMID 36933907.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  22. ^ Zeraatkar D, Bhasin A, Morassut RE, Churchill I, Gupta A, Lawson DO; et al. (2021). "Characteristics and quality of systematic reviews and meta-analyses of observational nutritional epidemiology: a cross-sectional study". Am J Clin Nutr. 113 (6): 1578–1592. doi:10.1093/ajcn/nqab002. PMC 8243916. PMID 33740039.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  23. ^ Godfray HCJ, Aveyard P, Garnett T, Hall JW, Key TJ, Lorimer J; et al. (2018). "Meat consumption, health, and the environment". Science. 361 (6399). doi:10.1126/science.aam5324. PMID 30026199.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  24. ^ Barnard ND, Willett WC, Ding EL (2017). "The Misuse of Meta-analysis in Nutrition Research". JAMA. 318 (15): 1435–1436. doi:10.1001/jama.2017.12083. PMID 28975260.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  25. ^ Friedman, Michael (March 7, 2017). "The Chaos of Neal Barnard". Psychology Today.
  26. ^ Mondloch, Helen (October 20, 2017). "Living well with Dr. Neal Barnard". Northern Virginia Magazine.
Item 3, 4, 5, 6 violate WP:MEDRS. We wouldn't cite primary sources for any of his research. If biomedical claims are going to be made then a reliable secondary sources must be added, for example, medical or nutritional textbooks, or systematic reviews etc not individual cohorts or trials. The content you cite here is all primary sources and unreliable. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see Bon courage on 23 October 2023 told you the same thing that the primary sources you are citing are not reliable. There isn't going to be a "research" section because we have no good independent reliable secondary sourcing for this. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
  Done for item 2 (partially, did not include the part citing primary sources) and item 7. The sentence in item 1 is no longer the version originally discussed above, and does not need changing. The other items cannot be added due to reliance on primary sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Publications list

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Latest comment: 8 months ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Wikipedia biographies are not Curriculum vitae, lengthy lists of publications shouldn't be here. See WP:NOTCV. MrOllie (talk) 19:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's hardly a lengthy list. As I said in the most recent edit summary, most biographies have such lists. What is your view on the Bon courage user leaving out just a single title? As I said, it's bizarre. 86.187.171.52 (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I have no doubt other articles also need to be fixed. That does not mean this one cannot be. MrOllie (talk) 19:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Actually they don't. It tends to be bro scientists and 'gurus' (usually men) who attract this attention. If you look at the article for an eminent scientist like (say) Nancy Kanwisher, who holds a named chair at MIT, you'll see no such laundry list of publications. Bon courage (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
What's odd for me is that Barnard's books over the years haven't been reviewed in medical journals. The IP was adding Barnard's latest book but it has not yet been published, it is out in April 2024 in the UK. It's best to wait and see if this book gets any academic coverage or not. I am hoping that Red Pen Reviews might review the book in the future [3] as they reviewed Michael Greger's latest book recently. Unfortunately there is a lack of sourcing in this area so we can't add anything without good sourcing. We have had similar issues in the past on Michael Klaper's article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bon courage: Update, just found these two sources [4], [5]. Are these any good to use? Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also a profile at Nature [6] and a brief mention at Science-Based Medicine [7] Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
All looks good for building the article and paving the way to a "Selected works" listing ... Bon courage (talk) 02:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I have added a few sources, if anyone wants to re-word it better that would be useful. At least we have made a start at adding some new sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Source fails MEDRS

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Latest comment: 6 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This paper co-authored by Barnard is repeatedly being added [8]. The paper fails WP:MEDRS. A secondary source needs to be found if such content is to be added such as a review of trials. This study was a 12 week trial, the results of which have not been independently replicated at large. We are not going to cite one trial on Wikipedia. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFC on adding at least a few books

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Latest comment: 12 days ago8 comments5 people in discussion

There are two questions:

  1. Can we add a new Publications section that includes at least a few books? I see that Robert Atkins (physician)#Books, Loren Cordain#Selected works, and other related BLPs also have these kinds of sections.
  2. Can we add "physician" to the first sentence of the article? The subject's primary occupation does not appear to be "animal rights activist", but rather more of a nutritionist or nutrition writer.

Mark0vPedro (talk) 00:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

This doesn't follow the guidance at WP:RFCBEFORE or WP:RFCST. This is not neutrally worded and far too long. I would recommend you ask the questions you are asking directly and concisely, and include this extra info in a comment in the actual RfC. Cessaune [talk] 23:25, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks,   Done. I've closely read the guidelines and have made this much shorter. The comment is below.
Comment
1. I don't entirely agree with Barnard's claims and am not exactly a fan of his ideas (and I'm decidedly a meat eater), but I don't see why mentioning at least a few books would be WP:UNDUE. Bon courage deleted the entire Publications section [9], which is actually quite brief and summarizes his key publications. This is useful to readers and is definitely not undue. Even if they are not mainstream scientific publications, a short Publications section does no harm at all and is actually useful for critics like me who at least want to find out what his most important books are.
I am aware that some anonymous editors may have tried to add long lists of publications in the past, and I wouldn't necessarily support any edits that try to portray Barnard's claims as completely correct.
Nevertheless, there is no Wikipedia policy which says that we can't include a short summary of 2-3 important books for so-called "fad diet" nutritionists. Wikipedia has long lists of publications for Robert Atkins (physician)#Books and Loren Cordain#Selected works (the notorious Paleo diet author) and many other fad diet proponents. I strongly disagree with many of those books by Atkins/Cordain and think that they definitely are not medical reliable sources (WP:MEDRS), but I wouldn't say that they should be deleted as "unreliable/undue". The same should be applied for Barnard's Wikipedia article, and there is no reason why his article should undergo much more aggressive trimming than those of other related authors. Putting in a short list of publications is not the same as promoting unreliable sources.
2. An additional issue is that I would recommend phrasing the first sentence in the article as "Neal D. Barnard is an American physician, author, ..." rather than as "Neal D. Barnard is an American animal rights activist, author, psychiatrist ..." (see Robert Atkins (physician), who is introduced simply as a "physician"). Even if he may have had some connections to animal rights activism, Barnard is not primarily an animal rights activist. "Physician" is more accurate, even though this was also reverted by Bon courage [10]. If "He is board certified by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology,[6] a fellow of the American College of Cardiology[7] and a lifetime member of the American Medical Association.[8]", then there is nothing wrong with describing him as a physician.
I'd appreciate additional input from the Wikipedia community about these two issues. Mark0vPedro (talk) 21:30, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is no problem with citing "selected publications" on any biography. The problem with the Barnard article was that there was far too many cited. If you add publications just make sure they are notable and ideally well sourced. I agree that adding some of his publications would be useful but not 100s. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Mark0vPedro, the book you added The Power Foods Diet does not appear to be notable; it has no book reviews or academic/dietitian coverage. Barnard's most notable books are the two I put in selected publications. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is stated in the lead that he is an author, so I would be confused not to find any of his publications listed in his article. I agree that only his most notable should be listed, but even then there should be reference that he wrote more, we are just listing his most notable, otherwise we aren't portraying his work accurately. Dobblesteintalk 22:46, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not all his books are notable. Most of them were not reviewed. Dietitians, physicians and food historians have ignored his publications. A good source is Red Pen Reviews [11] but they have not reviewed any of Barnard's books. Regarding his most recent book The Power Foods Diet, can you find any good WP:RS that actually mentions it? There is a serious lack of reliable sources that mention his books. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Support including publications and support rephrasing introduction: I agree with rephrasing the introduction as "Neal D. Barnard is an American physician, author and founder". Not sure if animal rights activist should be included there or not. Maybe next sentence. Support including publications (anything reviewed or published in a notable publication).
Avgeekamfot (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
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