Talk:Nelson Piquet

Questionable statement

Whilst in no way wishing to detract from Piquet's (or Schumacher's) abilities and achievements, I think the statement that "A proof of Piquet's unique talent is that he and the seven-time champion Michael Schumacher are the only two drivers between 1980 and 2000 to have won world titles racing for teams other than McLaren and Williams - undoubtedly the two reigning forces in those decades" is a bit much. It would hardly be fair to describe McLaren as "a reigning force" in 1983, 1994 or 1995 (or Williams in 1983 for that matter). In 1983, Piquet was in one of the three best cars (Brabham, Renault, Ferrari) and in 1994, Schumacher was in one of the best two (Williams, Benetton). If Irvine had scored three extra points and taken the title in 1999, would that have put him on a par with Piquet and Schumacher? I think not! DH85868993 02:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. DH85868993 23:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Good call. The Gnome 06:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Pure original research. Royalbroil 18:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Indy

Why no mention of his huge crash at the Indy 500 ?

It's there: "One of the great characters of 1980s F1, he tried his hand at the Indianapolis 500 in 1992, but crashed during qualifying and was badly injured." DH85868993 23:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, but seeing as this accident ended his career, doesn't it deserve a larger appearance in the article?--Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 09:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

overall quality

I tried to clean up some of the clumsy prose, but this article still needs work. versen (talk) 08:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Page move

Why was this page moved from Nelson Piquet? A user searching for "Nelson Piquet" would most likely be looking for the famous F1 racer, not his son or racetrack. If they were looking for his son or racetrack, the "otheruses1" template would suffice at the top of the article to point them to the dab page Nelson Piquet (disambiguation). It seems strange to have an existing article at "Nelson Piquet" then move it to "Nelson Piquet Sr. (racing driver)". ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Currently under discussion at WP:F1. DH85868993 (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Consensus at WP:F1 is for this page to be reverted to Nelson Piquet. DH85868993 (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support as most famous Nelson Piquet. 70.51.8.110 (talk) 06:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Move accepted. Discussion also occurred at WikiProject Formula One. Administrator tools was needed to perform this move, so I did it. Royalbroil 01:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pronunciation of Piquet

Could someone put a phonetic pronunciation of Piquet's name? I'm sure it's not pronounced as if it was French (with the silent 't') as the British commentators say. The Spanish, who should be more clued up on Portuguese pronunciation, pronounce the 't'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.30.28.186 (talk) 12:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, first of all, spanish has a totally different pronunciation than portuguese - even though the two languages are very much alike in written form they are very apart in the way we speak. Actually, portuguese sounds more like french or romanian than spanish.

Anyway, as a brazilian I can attest that we say say "Piquet" with a silent "t".

Unsourced and contradictory edits - including place of birth

See [1]. Apart from a lack of citations, the article as it stands now states that Piquet was born in São Paulo, and in Rio de Janeiro. Clearly one at least is wrong. Can I ask that people find a source before adding such details, and read the whole article when editing it. It shouldn't need a posting at the WP:BLPN [2] to point out such obvious errors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

As what sources I can find online seem to give Rio de Janeiro as the place of birth, I have removed São Paulo - but none of the sources look 100% trustworthy, so I have marked Rio de Janeiro as needing citation. If anyone can find a reliable source for this, it will be useful - but watch out for articles which have used Wikipedia for a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Piquet was born in Rio. Citation: ADAC Special: Grand Prix 1989, Hamburg 1989 ISSN 0937-0137, page 100. (in German language). One could argue that the writer who said he is from Sao Paoulo was joking, as Piquet provoked Sao Paulo-Fans more than once: http://formula1global.com/tracks/nelson-piquet-has-provoked-discontent-brazilian.html Definitely a gross error.--Michael G. Lind (talk) 13:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)

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Controversial remarks

About Hamilton

The article cites a BBC report for Piquet having called Lewis Hamilton a "neguinho" in 2022. But that BBC report curiously fails to specify what he is supposed to have said, not mentioning the Brazilian word, nor stating that it is the equivalent of "nigger" as we say in this article. So we need a source for what he actually said, and someone who knows the subtleties of Portuguese insults to help clarify its connotations. Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I've removed that he used "neguinho" as this is an explicit WP:BLP violation without a source expliticly stating it. SSSB (talk) 10:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Definitely a social media frenzy fueled mess, a lot of it in another language, at the moment. By what I can discern looking at various racing news sources, and others like The Guardian is everyone pointing to the CNN Brasil's article ;[3]. The article's extremely short and has less information than any other I've found. It appears the interviewer is Ricardo Oliveira, on a podcast called Motorsport Talk that I can't find. All I've found is a tweet[4] with an excerpt of the interview which was conducted in Portugese. This article will need some help with folks familiar with Brazilian Portugese . --WGFinley (talk) 11:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

We've now had an edit by User:Judyverstakl to say that the podcast in question was actually in 2021. But unless I'm missing something, this is also not stated in the source cited. Beorhtwulf (talk) 11:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, the tweet helpfully found by User:WGFinley does say 2021. Thanks for that. Beorhtwulf (talk) 11:24, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

All, found a reliable source now. Motorsport.com is very well regarded in the racing press, their Brazilian editor reviewed the podcast and translated it, I think this is a good source to clarify the incident and added it. Other than that, think I'll stay out of editing this one. --WGFinley (talk) 11:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that, and it does go into some more detail including making clear that the podcast was from 2021. We are still none the wiser, at least going by the cited sources, about what specifically Piquet is supposed to have said. Beorhtwulf (talk) 11:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

We need to be a little careful about this, since we are dealing with a translation. I've amended the text for now, to indicate this. From what I've read it isn't entirely clear whether the specific word used by Piquet is always seen as a slur, though there seems to be some agreement that it was at minimum inappropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

A report from The Scotsman, which specifies the word used (twice), confirming it as 'neguinho'. [5] AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, the article has been edited quite a bit and I'm still concerned information finding its way into footnoted sentences doesn't actually appear in the sources given. For example, we currently quote someone's translation of Piquet's remarks from one of the cited sources, but in place of their "n*****" (complete with asterisks, as if the mere sight of the word will make our eyes bleed, and yet we're supposed to guess what it is) we go with the original "neguinho" but then gloss it as "[little black boy]", seemingly unsupported by the sources. Evidently then there's a difference of opinion about whether neguinho is a straightforward equivalent of nigger or is a racially tinged way of referring to someone that nevertheless isn't perceived as offensively as that. I don't speak Portuguese so have no clue about the connotations myself. Wikipedia should do better than journalists who simply report that Piquet has used racist language without doing the reader the courtesy of telling them what he said. We ideally need direct quotation of his exact words in Portuguese, and a translation that makes clear (so no suggestive asterisks) how this translates in English, reliably sourced. We also need (and have, currently) a mention that his comments were made in 2021 but have suddenly blown up now. Beorhtwulf (talk) 18:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, the article certainly isn't satisfactory at present. As for translations, it is probably unrealistic to expect an 'exact' one, in the context of potentially emotionally-charged words. For what it's worth (I don't speak Portuguese either), there seems to be at least some evidence that context matters a lot regarding the word 'neguinho' - we have an article on a Brazilian futsal player who goes by that name professionally, which rather suggests that the word isn't always seen as offensive. I think the best we can do is probably to just state the word used, and report the controversy that has arisen. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

So we are not sure if "neguinho" is a racist word, or if it's use just appears racist in that context (i.e. if Brundle used "little black boy" to describe Hamilton in a critism is would be percieved as racist)? This needs clearing up. In the article's current form (in comments subsequently translated to "But the neguinho [little black boy] put the car [on the inside of Copse]. Copse is a very high speed corner, there's no way two cars can make it side by side.) it doesn't read like a "racial slur at all. It reads that (what makes this racist) is the context. I certainly don't get the impression that it is the Portuguese equivilant of "n*****" as suggested by the sources. I will shortly raise a translation request at WT:WikiProject Brazil and WT:WikiProject Portugal in the hope of finding someone who can translate. SSSB (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I have changed it to say that it is "n*****" as the cited sources do not support the translation of "little black boy". SSSB (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Which source are you getting your (unbowdlerised) translation from? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: We bowdlerise when we quote, and the quote bowdlerises. My interpretation of the guidline is that because the Wikiepdia article in it's current form isn't quoting anyone, it is merely reporting the translation, bowdlerising isn't appropraite. If we quoted the entire sentence, then bowdlerising would be appropriate. If you have a different interpration, I would be interested to hear it. SSSB (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

My issue isn't just with whether we bowdlerise or not. It is whether we should be suggesting that there is any exact translation between the Brazilian Portuguese term and an English one. So far, the only source I've seen which apparently does that is Motorsport.com, and I'm not sure we should see that as having any particular authority on the subject, even if we assume that we know the intended word behind their bowdlerising. Other sources seem less inclined to make 'translations' in such a context, and instead report the untranslated term, and the fact that it has been widely seen as offensive. As I see it, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this article whether the word can be directly translated into English or not, since it was offensive in context, and that is what is being reacted to. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I am a Brazilian native, and while I do not have any professional translation credentials, maybe I can give some perspective to non-natives. The word "neguinho" literally means "little black boy". The suffix "-inho/a" in a word means "little", and it is either used to add affection to a word or to demean or belittle. So whether "neguinho" is being used as a slur or as an endearment term highly depends on the context and tone. When used to refer to a close friend or family member, it is most likely an endearment term, if not a slightly racially tinged nickname (but it is also often used to refer to non-black individuals too). These days it is not very encouraged anymore, but by no means it has the same charge as "nig***". Piquet's sentence in isolation cannot be objectively interpreted to be either a slur or an old-fashioned slang that people may raise eyebrows. However, Piquet is widely perceived to be a conservative bigot in Brazil, so most interpretations is that he indeed used it as a racial slur. Nevertheless, I don't agree that "neguinho" translates to "nig***" and think that should be corrected. Cosmia2 (talk) 23:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The suffix "-inho" (and "-inha" when feminine) is a diminuitive. It's use can be positive - to indicate affection or familiarity (similar to referring to Michael as "Mikey"), neutral - to indicate someone who is younger, smaller, or less experienced (eg Ronaldinho), or negative as a means of demeaning or showing disrespect toward someone.

The intention is informed by the context in which it is used altho, of course, language is complex and people can be duplicitous. The context might superficially suggest a positive meaning while the opposite is intended.

Furthermore, "neguinho" translates more accurately to "(little) nigga" in English, with the same variability of acceptance depending on how and where it is used. The equivalent of "n---er" in Portuguese is "negrinho". 220.235.122.247 (talk) 05:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

SSSB, I wasn't implying anything. I was stating a cited fact related to the matter. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 13:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The relationship between Kelly and Verstappen is only relevant if there is evidence that Nelson's comments were influenced (in part or in whole, consciously or subconsciously) by the relationship. Therefore stating that this relationship exists does imply that the relationship had some bearing on why Nelson said what he did. SSSB (talk) 15:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

In Rio de Janeiro it is extremely common to use the word "neguinho" as a slang, I live in this city and I say it myself all the time. It's not racist slang, it's a popular and old slang in the area that generalizes when you're too lazy to speak or remember people's names. You simply say, "ah, that neguinho over there" instead of saying "ah, that person over there". It shouldn't be a reason for so much commotion, but it's an election year in Brazil, the left wants to destroy the right and that's on the agenda. There are people out there who are very mentally addicted to politics who see a racial problem in anything. Piquet is known in Brazil for being rude, perhaps old-fashioned, but not racist. His manner as a person was molded into the pattern of his time.Gtroviz (talk) 22:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

WE go by what the sources say, not by contributors' own personal interpretations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Your "super sources" are pathetic angry socialists from the US and Europe. You live in Rio? No, then go eat cattle pasture. You don't know the local slangs. Gtroviz (talk) 23:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Gtroviz, we all get it: "eat shit". I just dropped a warning for that on your talk page. Oh, "pathetic angry socialists" is ridiculous. Yes, "super" sources--I get it, you know better, but we still go by reliable sources, and we'll put more stock in them than in your personal observations which, it seems to me, are very much colored by a kind of apologetics. Let me add that the only one who injected politics into this is...you. Drmies (talk) 23:11, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I know Wikipedia policy, which is what matters here. Go read them, starting with WP:RS, WP:OR, and WP:NPA. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

About others

Going back further, the article says Piquet called Nigel Mansell an "uneducated blockhead", his wife Roseanne "ugly", Ayrton Senna "gay" and Enzo Ferrari "senile". Mansell's 1995 autobiography is given as the source for Mansell being unhappy about this, and we helpfully have a page reference, but it's not clear from the article whether that book provides a specific quotation of all four insults, and whether the footnote is supposed to be the source for the whole paragraph in our article or just Mansell's reaction. Perhaps someone who has access to it can check. If we are going to attribute specific words to people, we ought to have a specific source. Beorhtwulf (talk) 10:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if this is relevant or should be included, but Brazilians have also been remembering the time Piquet, when asked in a TV show who was better, him or Ayrton Senna, he said "Well, I'm alive" and proceeding to laugh. It is a widely known comment from Piquet amongst Brazilians, and there are many videos on Youtube showing the specific comment being made, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an English reputable source on it. Brazilian source 1, 2. Cosmia2 (talk) 16:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I've added a 2018 book source on the 1988 controversy, and also a reference for Piquet still calling Senna gay in 2020. I agree that it's bad for a controversy section to rely on the writings of an allegedly aggrieved party. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The current section heading of "Offensive language" is perhaps not the most neutral heading to use. "Gay" (his description of "gay" to describe Senna), "Uneducated blockhead" and "ugly" are perhaps better described, in neutral terms, as insults rather than "offensive" language. In my view the section heading should be changed to "Use of insults" or "Insults" for a more neutral heading. If "neguinho" (in the context that Piquet used the word) means "little black guy" in Brazil, then many people would find that description offensive, but not all Wikipedia readers. When Piquet later apologised, he said that it was not intended to be racist. In my view, the heading of "Offensive" shouldn't be in Wiki-voice and the more neutral description of his language is "Insults". Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 23:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

New Business Venture (Loxahatchee, FL)

Nelson has recently bought out a business along FL SR 80/Southern Blvd, named Piquet Entertainment and Race Park. Figured I’d let y’all know, as a south florida local who drives past it all the time, and as an F1 fan who’s dating another F1 fan lol 2601:58A:4100:27E0:40A0:9D77:123:EA11 (talk) 07:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)