Talk:Neryungrinsky District

Neryungrinsky Ulus ?

• Ezhiki :
  • « no such thing as "Neryungrinsky Ulus". There are only Neryungri and Neryungrinsky Municipal District (which is a municipal, not an administrative, division) » ;

• Нүөрүҥгүрү улууһа :
  • « Нүөрүҥгүрү диэн Саха Сирин соҕуруу өттүгэр баар улуус. » ;

• Нерюнгринский улус Якутии :
  • « Нерюнгринский улус (якут. Нүөрүҥгүрү улууhа) - административно-территориальная единица на юге Республики Саха (Якутии). ».

So what ?

Budelberger (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ().

The answer is actually quite complicated—you'll probably wish you hadn't asked by the time I'm done :)

The main thing is that there's never been a territorry officially called "Neryungrinsky Ulus". Neryungri itself was established in 1975 and, as is common practice, it had a certain territory under its jurisdiction. During Soviet times, the Yakut ASSR was, on the first level, administratively divided into districts and republican-level cities. Districts had administrative centers, from where the rest of their territories was governed. Republican-level cities had territories under their jurisdiction, which they also governed. The differences were mainly in implementation and separatation of duties, and colloquially it was not uncommon to refer to the territeries under jurisdiction of republican-level cities as "districts". Neryungri always had been such a city, and the territory under its jurisdiction was occasionally referred to as "Neryungrinsky District". Note, however, that such usage had never been official.

In 1995, the Republic adopted a new law governing its administrative and territorial divisions. This is when the term "ulus" was introduced for the first time (note, however, that I am talking about the Russian term; in Sakha "ulus" simply means "district"). According to the law, the terms "ulus" and "district" were to be considered equal and interchangeable. This, of course, affected the colloquial patterns, so Neryungri's territory also started to be referred to as "Neryungrinsky Ulus". Since no actual changes had been made to the city's status, this name also remained strictly unofficial.

Some time later, the first municipal reform started in the republic. In 2002, according to the principles laid out in the Constitution of Russia, existing systems of local self-government started to be changed and new ones were established. In 2002, Neryungri and the territory under its jurisdiction was municipally incorporated into the "municipal formation of 'Neryungrinsky District'". The administrative status, however, was not changed; the city remained a republican-level city. So, in 2002, the administrative unit was still the city of Neryungri, while the municipal unit was called "Neryungrinsky District" (note that "district" here is a part of the proper name, not a qualifier). If this seems convoluted, I assure you the citizens of Russia were for the most part equally confused. It is no wonder that the "municipal formation of 'Neryungrinsky District'" continued to be informally known as simply "Neryungrinsky District" or "Neryungrinsky Ulus".

Come 2004, the second municipal reform hit Russia. The main change was that, unlike previously, the structure of the municipal formations was federally legislated, while the implementation was left to the federal subjects (before that, both the structure and the implementation were up to the federal subjects). Some new terminology was introduced, and the federal subjects were expected to comply with it by the end of 2004. Under the new system, the majority of the federal subject-level cities were incorporated as municipal urban okrugs, while the administrative districts were incorporated as municipal districts (and I again point out that this had no effect on the administrative and territorial structure; the reform was only concerned with the system of organization of the local self-government). Yakutsk, for example, which is another republican-level city in Sakha, was municipally incorporated as the "urban okrug of the 'City of Yakutsk'". Neryungri, however, was an exception. While it was a republican-level city just like Yakutsk, it was incorporated as a municipal district, not as an urban okrug. This practice, while somewhat unusual, was still a valid option. So, in November 2004, the former "municipal formation of 'Neryungrinsky District'" became the "municipal district of 'Neryungrinsky District'". The name seems tautological on the surface, but note that "municipal district" explains the status of the municipal unit, while "District" in "Neryungrinsky District" is a part of the proper name (i.e., the municipal district was called "Neryungrinsky District", not just "Neryungrinsky").

If you are still with me (and hopefully following), there is another thing that needs to be taken into consideration. In the Russian Wikipedia, the units of administrative division take back seat to the units of municipal division. So, in an article on any given federal subject, the "divisions" section deals first and foremost with the municipal units. In the English Wikipedia, however, the "divisions" section deals first and foremost with the administrative units (because they are primary, and serve as the basis for municipal units). The municipal units are mentioned in the article about corresponding administrative units, and are only in separate articles when administrative units and municipal units do not correspond 1:1 (which occasionally is the case). So, with Neryungri, we have the Neryungri article (an administrative unit), which mentions "Neryungrinsky Municipal District" (which, if one is to be 100% correct, should be the "municipal district of 'Neryungrinsky District'"—the official name of this municipal unit). In the Russian Wikipedia, they have the ru:Нерюнгри article (because they have separate articles for all inhabited localities no matter what their municipal status is), yet they also have the ru:Нерюнгринский улус Якутии article, which is about the municipal unit. It is also absolutely incorrectly named, which, undoubtedly, contributed to your confusion. May have something to do with their naming conventions, though; I simply wasn't interested to untangle this mess for them.

As for the Sakha article (sah:Нүөрүҥгүрү улууһа), since "улууһа" simply means "district", they would refer to the municipal district as "municipal улууһа" (whatever "municipal" is in Sakha). Since I don't speak that language, I can't tell you what their arrangement is.

I'm sure this explanation is way over what you expected (even though I did simplify a few non-critical things quite a bit for the sake of clarity), but I hope it is to your satisfaction. Feel free to let me know if you have any questions. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, c'est malin, Igels Hérissonovitch, maintenant, j'ai mal à la tête ! Je suis toujours émerveillé de la capacité des hommes à se compliquer les situations… Le mérite de ma question, c'est de vous avoir apporté un peu de votre Union soviétique natale dans vos États-Unis ! (Est-ce aussi compliqué, là-bas ?) Avec moi au pouvoir, croyez-moi, ça tournerait « carré » : plus d'enclaves, plus d'exclaves, plus de zones franches, plus d'aberrations. Tiens ! je déclare la guerre à l'Espagne, pour récupérer Llívia ! Et eux à l'Angleterre, pour Gibraltar ; et le Maroc à l'Espagne, pour Ceuta et Melilla. Etc. J'ai attiré l'attention d'HalanTul, de la sah.Wikipedia ; ça réglera peut-être un peu le problème (aucune Wikipedia n'est d'accord avec une autre sur le nombre des ulus ! en, ru, sah, fi…). Peut-être, au point où vous en êtes, connaissez-vous le nom de l'ulus « Мухтуйа » (s'il existe !) (cf. Template:Uluses of the Sakha Republic ; vous pourrez aussi supprimer le « Neryungrinsky Ulus »…). Merci de votre longue réponse, simplifiée…, documentée comme un rapport soviétique… --Budelberger (talk) 00:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC) (). (P.-S. : Comment peut-on ne pas connaître le yakoute ?… Il devrait être obligatoire dès l'école primaire, aux USA comme en France.)

Believe me, if I were in charge, this "structure" would never have happened :) I am a man of simplicity (although, admittedly, not of few words). Unfortunately, since I am not in charge, the best I can do is to try making sense of the situation and to explain it to confused folks like you :) The system currently in place, by the way, is not at all Soviet—the administrative divisions part did transfer from the Soviet times, but the municipal part is a very recent implementation. What's more, Soviet meticulousness hardly ever lead to German-like efficiency; it mostly just confused people who went around their business as usual using the old ways. Anyway, I'm glad that my comment was of at least some help to you.

Thanks for creating the template. "Мухтуйа" is actually the old name of Lensk, so I would imagine "Мухтуйа Ulus" would be Lensky Ulus (which you already have listed in the template). I will make the changes so the template complies with the list in administrative divisions of the Sakha Republic. The number of uluses (administrative) is currently 33, and that's the number that I can substantiate with sources. The number of municipal districts is 34, and I can substantiate it as well. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Imagine the progress the human kind would make if the study of Sakha were made compulsory in all schools all over the world! Me, I still need to work on my rusty French first, so please do not hesitate to start studying ahead of me :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the article due to the changes to the Constitution and their interpretation.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 4, 2011; 20:07 (UTC)