Talk:Netiv HaAsara massacre

Massacre

The article for the Re'im music festival massacre mentions it as a massacre. As this was part of the same event, shouldn't this also be named a massacre? The number of dead are lower, sure, but it is still significant. Ronsiv8 (talk) 23:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. For clarification, this article was originally titled "Netiv HaAsara massacre" but was moved without consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerium (talk) 04:05, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

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Netiv HaAsara attack → Netiv HaAsara massacre – In keeping with the naming of other events that took place at the same time, this should be called a massacre since it was an attack on civilians. SuperSardus (talk) 22:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Sources also do mention it this way (1). P.S. And I assume that Ronsiv8 who wrote above also supports. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 23:20, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Following Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) on NPOV, we need sourcing supporting the claim that the descriptor "massacre" is at minimum generally accepted, in English, describing this particular event. It is not to be drawn from our own conclusions about the degree of similarity or dissimilarity with other events, the nature of the victims, or whatever else. Otherwise "attack" is proper. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: The only English language source currently cited on this page currently calls it an "attack" in its title, while the non-English sources are not relevant with respect to en.wiki naming policy. A basic adherence to the sources, per WP:NPOV, WP:OR etc., must be maintained until such time as other sourcing is presented. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The ToI source said “attack” by “Hamas terrorists.” Is a terrorist attack which kills 15 innocent civilians one-by-one in cold blood not considered a massacre? Closetside (talk) 03:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Wikipedia follows the language of reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect to the Wikipedia rules, this event is a part of a series of events that were all considered massacres by reliable sources. The fact that no source mentions it as a massacre is pure coincidence in my opinion, and an exception should be made here. Ronsiv8 (talk) 09:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

If there is insufficient material to stand the article up then it should obviously just be merged elsewhere, either into one of the other pages, or into an overarching page. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The page is fine, it deserves being a page like every other massacre (Re'im music festival massacre, Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre, Nir Oz massacre). It makes no sense for this, being a part of the same series of attacks and done in a similar way, to not be called so. Ronsiv8 (talk) 09:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Support, of course, I already voiced my opinion here. Ronsiv8 (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Merge, same thing as in Be'eri massacre and Kfar Aza massacre. IZAK (talk) 02:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The Jerusalem Post says “Here [Netiv HaAsara]], they [Hamas militants] murdered at least 15 people...”. The headline says the border communities faced massacre and eviction. There is your additional English source. The Hebrew YNet source uses ״טבחו״, which means “they slaughtered” or “they massacred.” Non-English sources are considered reliable too. In addition, killing 15 innocent civilians in cold blood obviously fits the definition of a massacre. Closetside (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  That's still not an English source using Netiv HaAsara + 'massacre', and, assuming that efforts to find such sources have now been made and come up with nothing, it suggests a paucity. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, per reliable sources such as the above cited YNet. Note this part of a series - along with Re'im music festival massacre, Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre, Nir Oz massacre. Marokwitz (talk) 11:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. See English-language description as massacre "‘There was no air force, no soldiers, we were alone,’ says Hamas massacre survivor" Loksmythe (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  That confirms the ToI supports the "massacre" language. Massacre in one article, terrorist attack in another. It is clear the mass killings in Netiv HaAsara should be called a massacre. Closetside (talk) 16:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. As with the other articles on the other massacres carried out that day, the coverage in reliable sources is overwhelming that these attacks were indeed massacres aimed at civilians. Coretheapple (talk) 17:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• This article was created under the name "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Then it was renamed to improper name without any discussion. And now we have to spend time to rename it back. Here are some additional sources which call it massacre: 1, 2, 3, 4 and etc. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 01:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

  That's correct, it was moved without discussion or consensus. Coretheapple (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023

In the article it says that 15 "settlers" were killed. This is wrong. The village is located on israeli territory. The wording is wrong and insulting. Vdnvosv (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Done Chrisanthusjohn (talk) 13:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The fact that got through is insane to me 46.116.185.30 (talk) 08:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

They are terrorists not militants. Change the wording. 89.197.192.195 (talk) 08:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: See MOS:TERRORIST. Tollens (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merger

Sounding out support to merge this page with 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. That page has gradually absorbed most of these standalone articles detailing the broader attack in different places. Riposte97 (talk) 02:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

There has been an AfD on this and the similar Nir Yitzhak and Holit articles, and all three were closed last week as keep. Only non-notable articles should be deleted or merged. The AfD’s have shown these three as notable. As part of my analyses for the AfDs I am now updating these articles, which did not utilize resources to the fullest or include diverse resources. I’ve completed the Nir Yitzhak update, am now working on Holit, and will do this one after that. For more info see:

• Talk:Nir Yitzhak massacre#Updating Holit, Netiv HaAsara and Nir Yitzhak articles to Wikipedia standards
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holit massacre
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Netiv HaAsara massacre
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nir Yitzhak massacre (2nd nomination)

Ayenaee (talk) 06:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Roger that, thanks. Glad that someone's working on those. Riposte97 (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)