Talk:Nevermore

Untitled

Thanks to whoever wrote this, we needed a full, non-stub article on Nevermore. Me being a hardcore Nevermore fan. — Preceding unsigned comment added - Exsequor (talk • contribs) 06:08, 10 June 2005 (UTC)

Progressive Metal

(cur) (last) 09:56, 14 October 2006 217.226.232.73 (Talk) (I like that you said they incorporate a lot of styles, but I dispute that they are mainly progressive metal. Let's agree on Heavy Metal and keep your mention that they incorporate all these styles.)

This was my edit; sorry I forgot to log in! If you'd like to discuss the change, let's do it here. --Bringa 09:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I think Nevermore should be considered Progressive metal, with other styles incorporated. Their albums are all very progressive, and I think that is their main style. However, there is also a main theme of Thrash metal, if you want to include that as well. If we use the example of Opeth, then Opeth could be considered a Progressive metal and a Death metal band. No band has to stick with just one genre. It should be noted though, that Prog metal is very diverse and comprises of 'traditional'-sounding bands like Dream Theater, Symphony X etc., but it can also be extreme - Opeth, Strapping Young Lad and Nevermore, to name a few. In Flames 23:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

They're definitely prog metal. The only thing I see that needs editing is the mention of a death metal element to their sound, because there really isn't one.

They could be considered progressive thrash metal. They do have the two themes, and as In Flames said, a band doesn't need to be confined to just one genre of music. Anyone oppose the progressive thrash metal edit? 360legend 07:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I agree with 360legend. They're Progressive Metal, with Thrash elements. You can't get more Progressive than songs like The Learning, and they have a very Thrashy style in their guitars, I find. GSheen 13:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The majority of the metal community, from what I can gather, considers them to be progressive thrash metal. Why can't we just use that? Scourge441 (talk) 04:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Power metal

What about power metal? Many people added several times this genre in the box, but imho isn't very agreeable... speed is better. For the "prog question", AMG says both progressive and alternative metal, now I add alt metal with references, but we can also discuss. Connacht 11:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I would not trust AMG at all for this. AMG is a very mainstream music-based group, and Nevermore is not mainstream, therefore their judgements aren't very trustworthy. As for power metal, the only power metal-esque piece I've heard in their discography(and I've listened to it more than once) is the melodic singing vocal style. 168.169.88.7 (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nevermore Logo.png

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This article needs to check its sources

I can't believe a fake member has been in the article since May 28, also noticed that this false information has been transfered to other Wikipedias. The info is taken away now anyway, but I'm tagging the article for possible factual inaccuracies, until it has been gone through and confirmed it has no further faulse info. Report progress here. Grinder0-0 20:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Genres

Why has the lay-out been changed to a comma separated list? It was <br /> separated for years, until it was changed recently. [1] with the comment "infobox style according to guidelines". As far as I know there is no guideline and no consensus on the genre lay-out in artist infoboxes. I don't mind having comma separated lists but here I'd recommend using a <br /> separated list because in this article:

• Genres (power metal in this case) won't be cut in two and displayed on two rows
• Consistency with most other metal articles

Anyone opposed? Kameejl ^(Talk) 07:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed some genres (groove metal and death metal). Because the genre is disputed I 'm willing to create a "Genre" or "Style" section where the genre is explained in more detail (using sources), like I did on Meshuggah. I'll then put heavy metal as genre in the infobox with a see below link. Good idea?

I did some research:

• Encyclopaedia Metallum "Power/thrash metal (early), Groove/progressive metal (later)"

• www.rockdetector.com "Seattle based, technical Speed Metal outfit NEVERMORE was created in 1992 ... by this stage totally succumbed to NEVERMORE's brand of technical Thrash ..."

• Heavy metal
• technical Speed Metal
• technical Thrash

• www.bnrmetal.com "Traditional Metal"

• www.metal-observer.com

"Nevermore (USA)

1995/2006 s/t (Re-Release) Review > 8/10 - Eric V. - (Heavy Metal)

1996 In Memory Review > 10/10 - Jenn - (Power Metal)

1996 The Politics Of Ecstasy Review > 10/10 - Frodi - (Thrash Metal)

1996/2006 In Memory (Re-Release) Review > 8/10 - Eric V. - (Heavy Metal)

1996/2006 The Politics Of Ecstasy (Re-Release) Review > 9,5/10 - Eric V. - (Progressive Metal)

1999 Dreaming Neon Black Review > 10/10 - Corey - (Power Metal)

2000 Dead Heart In A Dead World Review > 9,5/10 - Alex - (Power Metal)

2003 Enemies Of Reality Review > 9/10 - Corey - (Power Metal)

2003 Enemies Of Reality Review > 9,5/10 - Joe - (Power Metal)

2005 This Godless Endeavour Review > 10/10 - Frodi - (Thrash Metal/Death Metal)

2005 This Godless Endeavour Review > 10/10 - Joe - (Thrash Metal/Death Metal)

2005 This Godless Endeavour Review > 10/10 - Armen - (Thrash Metal/Death Metal)

2005 This Godless Endeavour Review > 10/10 - Jeremy - (Thrash Metal/Death Metal)"

• Heavy Metal
• Power Metal
• Thrash Metal
• Progressive Metal
• Thrash Metal/Death Metal

• www.metal-observer.com "If you’re unfamiliar with NEVERMORE’s music, they play…umm…Progressive Power/Thrash Metal? Progressive because they manage to incorporate ‘outside’ influences, odd time signatures, classical influences and strange chords. Power because, Warrel Dane sings (more on that later) and Thrash because of the heaviness. Even then, NEVERMORE still manages to forge their own sound, classifications and genres be damned. If you know what NEVERMORE sounds like, just scroll to the bottom of the review. For those not certain, read on."

• Progressive Power/Thrash Metal

• www.metal-observer.com "If you’re a long time fan you’ve probably noticed that their catchy and melodic approach is taking a seat back for every record, for these new songs the Death Metal influences that’s been boiling up inside the band has finally been released, it’s a challenging record even for Warrel who does a few growls or something close to it, yet the catchiness remains and is not forsaken ... More Death Metal choppings become the backbone of the tech thrashing “Psalm Of Lydia” which also has some freakish start/stop timing in the verses. “A Future Uncertain” begins with acoustic guitar oddly taking me back to MAIDEN’s “The X Factor”, how far out is that… oh yes, there’s more Death Metal riffing in the middle of the song."

• Death Metal influences
• Death Metal riffing

• www.metal-observer.com "I call this Power Metal only because of the riffs and power chords and for lack of a more fitting genre…I don't like classifying them this way because it just does not suit them. Truly, they should not be classified! They are dark, evil, moody and serious all at the same time. Power Metal is usually glorious and somewhat happy sounding and rarely deals with serious issues explored here."

• Power Metal

• www.metal-observer.com "Here we have the third of Century Media’s NEVERMORE reissues, the band’s third release “The Politics Of Ecstasy”. NEVERMORE had never been a band that was easy to classify. Too heavy for Power Metal, and a bit too slow for Thrash, NEVERMORE is one of those rare bands that belongs solely in its own space, defying genre boundaries."

• www.metal-observer.com "Some people would say that NEVERMORE is a Power Metal band, which makes them the biggest laughing stock of all! ... NEVERMORE is a Melodic Thrash sounding mammoth that runs all over you every time they release an album, SANCTUARY may have had more to do with Power Metal ... Pat O’Brien’s (CANNIBAL CORPSE) influence and writing approach makes most of the album sound pretty much like Thrash/Death Metal ... This album also sees the band venturing into progressive song structures (see “The Learning”, “Passenger”, “42147” and the title track)"

• Melodic Thrash
• Thrash/Death Metal
• progressive song structures

• www.metal-observer.com "Rising from the ashes of SANCTUARY, vocalist Warrel Dane, guitarist Jeff Loomis and bass player Kim Sheppard took the Thrash-influenced, Heavy Metal sound of their previous band, and beefed it up considerably."

• Thrash-influenced
• Heavy Metal sound

• allmusic.com "Nevermore straddles the line between power metal, traditional heavy metal, and the contemporary hard rock scene, eschewing the silly theatrics of the "power scene" in favor of a darker tone, while reaping the rewards of melody and the high-flying vocal range of singer Warrel Dane ... Nevermore entered a Texas studio with producer Andy Sneap and crafted a new album that adeptly blended contemporary heavy sounds with traditional heavy metal."

• Heavy Metal
• Power Metal
• Progressive Metal
• Alternative Metal
• traditional heavy metal

• www.popmatters.com "Steeped heavily in the classic elements of traditional metal, and adding more contemporary touches of post-thrash/post-death metal ... The band's blend of traditional and modern sounds is fascinating: traces of '80s progressive metal greats such as Queensryche, Savatage, and Fates Warning are easily detectable in their compositions ... The resulting sound is one of impressive brutality and technical dexterity, yet it remains remarkably accessible throughout ... Nevermore has not sounded this ferocious in many years, the entire band taking on a death metal form, Dane temporarily eschewing his soaring vocals for a more extreme metal growl ... "A Future Uncertain" begins by hinting at the doom metal of Candlemass, but soon explodes out of the gate at a breakneck thrash metal pace..."

• classic elements of traditional metal
• touches of post-thrash/post-death metal
• traces of '80s progressive metal
• the entire band taking on a death metal form
• hinting at the doom
• thrash metal pace

I will create a style/genre section any time soon. Kameejl ^(Talk) 09:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Article move

What happened with the history of the article? Something has gone wrong when moving because now, the history is scattered. Can this be fixed? Kameejl ^(Talk) 13:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hard rock? Really?

Anyone who's ever heard Nevermore knows their music is a thrash/progressive/power metal mix. The current genres are incorrect and a two minute google search ought to be enough for any idiot to realise it.86.167.178.170 (talk) 22:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

If that's true, you can change it yourself, provided you back it up with references. Currently, these were placed there based on reliable sources like Allmusic. Vortiene (talk) 12:05, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 13 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus; there is dispute as to whether page view is a good factor in this case (non-admin closure) Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:57, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

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• Nevermore → Nevermore (band)
• Nevermore (disambiguation) → Nevermore

– The band does not fit the criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, although none of the other articles listed in the disambiguation articles are that particularly notable either. I originally found these articles thinking it would lead to The Raven, but I think the disambiguation article being moved to the base name makes the most sense. Aspects (talk) 06:20, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support yes - similar to Flavours, God and Satan, Misfortunes and several other current discussions. Because our industrious pop article contributors generate enormous quantities of pop articles, that's fine, but too many of these editors don't think of the universe outside pop music. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:29, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support Red Slash 16:07, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment – Meh. I think a pretty good argument can be made that the band is the current primary topic. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:45, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Moved to oppose, re: Dohn joe. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 06:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, I'd think if a primary was chosen it would have been Poe's "The Raven", and would probably support a primary move to that page. Randy Kryn 14:02, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Here are the July pageviews for the dab page topics:

• Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe - 128
• Nevermore: The Final Maximum Ride Adventure - 286
• Nevermore (novel) - 74
• Nevermore (2006 film) - 32
• Nevermore (2007 film) - 23
• Nevermore (audio drama) - 93
• Nevermore (song) - 190
• Nevermore (band) - 64
• Nevermore - 2,481

That's 75 percent for the the band. And while some number of those views are simply because this is the primary topic, only 132 people went to the dab page. Seems like a pretty clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Dohn joe (talk) 14:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Which, of course, is why the second criterion of primary topic exists. I would also guess that many people are looking for The Raven as well. I do commend your excellent work compiling pageviews. Red Slash 02:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Red Slash - if people were looking for The Raven, wouldn't they (or more of them) have followed the hatnote to the dab page? Only 132 have gone to that page this month from all sources. Isn't that pretty good evidence that the people who came to the band page were trying to go there? Dohn joe (talk) 03:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

This argument makes no sense. Somebody who goes to the band page could have been looking for something else. The page views only tell you that the reader was sent to Nevermore by Wikipedia when they looked for the topic "Nevermore". The current naming ensures that. Without even a hatnote that names other topics i.e. Poe's poem, the musical (which gets more news hits), how do you know they didn't just give up when they were dropped on the band's page? The point of this disucssion is to ask if we should send readers straight to Nevermore or to Nevermore (disambiguation) in order to see which Neverore they're looking for. Quoting these page views is begging the question. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Dohn joe's stats. I agree with his reply to Red Slash, too. Jenks24 (talk) 12:07, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support -- The page view argument is fallacious, and self-fulfilling -- see above. Making Nevermore about the band ensures that 75% of traffic goes to that topic, regardless of what the reader was looking for. Google Ngams tells us the vast majority of book references predate the band Nevermore by decades. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage" in searches and in long term significance. Since the band broke up in 2011, the majority of Google News references to the word are not about the band -- no lasting significance. Even when the band was active, most Google News hits from 1991 to 2011 are not about the band. The vast majority of the usages of the word "nevermore" in print do not refer to the band, in fact they predate it; they are mostly actual usages of the word, or else references to Poe's poem, or to works directly derived from it. The band is merely one of these derivative references. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Of the things actually called "Nevermore", this is easily the primary topic. If large numbers of people were really typing in or clicking on "Nevermore" looking for the Raven, we'd have seen more than 132 page views on the dab page. The current setup seems to be getting readers where they want to go.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:30, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dohn Joe. The existence of other topics doesn't prevent one from being primary. Calidum T|C 23:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I just want to repeat that even when the band Nevermore was together, the play Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe got more google news hits, and that gulf has widened since the band quit. We don't choose primary topics merely because one happened to squat on the Wikipedia article title first. Nevermore (band) was not the primary topic before 1991, nor 1991–2011, nor after 2011. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified (February 2018)

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