Talk:Neville Southall/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Meetthefeebles (talk · contribs) 21:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Okay, this one has been sat doing nothing for ages so I'll review. Give me until tomorrow to get something put together... Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Right, let's get started. As always, reviewing using WP:WIAGA

• Disambiguation: none found using the Dablinks tool
• Images: Only one to check – the infobox image appears fine
• Dead links; there are a couple (highlighted in 'references' below)
• Quick Fail issues: Can't see any cleanup tags, there seems at first glance through to be plenty of inline references, no evidence of edit warring

Okay, I'll work through by section and leave any comments below:

Lead

• There is a lot of blue-linking and some is perhaps superfluous; consider removing the blue link for 'waiter' and binman as these are common terms?
• The comma after '£150,000 in 1984' could be removed.
• Would 'first choice goalkeeper' be better than 'number one goalkeeper'?
• I'm not sure that his failure to play in a major international tournament is 'despite' his many caps. Suggest "He played internationally for Wales, winning a record 92 caps between 1982 and 1998 though he did not play in any major international competitions."

Otherwise, a good start.

Early Years

• The first 'he' could perhaps be 'Southall', but this is probably a personal preference
• Per WP:OVERLINK, I think Germany can be unlinked.
• "The Swifts were a poor side that were regularly beaten heavily, though this allowed Southall to gain a wealth of experience keeping out a near constant barrage of shots" This sentence doesn't quite read right; it almost seems to imply that he would spend his whole career facing a constant barrage of shots. Perhaps "though this enabled Southall to hone his skills through facing a near constant barrage of shots" or something similar might make an improvement?
• I think postman can be unlinked.
• "Bangor manager Dave Elliott preferred veteran goalkeeper Peter Eales, and Southall received £10 a week as a semi-professional"; these sentences don't really relate to one another. Suggest splitting and perhaps slightly amending the first to indicate that Southall was not the first-choice 'keeper, rather than being 'un-preferred'?
• What is meant by Bangor city 'falling away'? Did they fold or did they simply perform more poorly? Did Southall then leave to join Conwy or did he play for both clubs at the same time? Did he request a transfer or was he free to simply leave? Suggest being more explicit here.

I would imagine the club allowed him to leave to save money.--EchetusXe 21:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• How long was he at Bangor and Conwy?

I can't find any dates.--EchetusXe 21:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

That's odd. Is it not in his autobiography? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, they are minor details of his early career in amateur football.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Bury

• The first sentence seems overly long. suggest splitting rather than using the semi-colon?
• "though managed" → "though they managed"?

Everton

• " On 6 November..." Perhaps add the year here? 1982 presumably?
• Remove duplicated bluelink of Football League Fourth Division
• There are a few nicknames starting to come into the article (Valiants, Toffees etc). I am a football fan, so I understand these and have no problem with them, but a non-expert/football fan might struggle to understand "back with 'the toffees'...", for example. I'd consider replacing them.
• Suggest removing "highly prestigious"; it may well be that the European cup is indeed highly prestigious but it borders on WP:PEACOCK.
• I'd break up "Though Everton had won a place in the highly prestigious European Cup, English clubs were banned from European competitions following the Heysel Stadium disaster; Southall remained bitter over this, blaming UEFA for the tragedy and stating that the ban was a convenient way to break up English dominance of European competitions" into two sentence just to help the prose.
• Be careful with overlinking; "he returned to the first team against Watford" is a duplicate, for example, as is FA Cup.
• Spain doesn't really require linking I think. Consider removal and perhaps replace with Athletic Bilbao.
• "Inspired by the Hillsborough disaster in the semi-final encounter with Nottingham Forest..." I'm not sure that Southall's autobiography is a suitable source for such a statement. I'd much prefer to see that verified by reference to a source quoting one (or more) of the Liverpool players.
• Is "a match that was shown live on free-to-air television" sufficiently notable to be noted? Suggest simply "a televised 6–2 defeat to Aston Villa".
• "correct itself" → "corrected itself"?
• "impressive double save": WP:PEACOCK? It can probably stay if it is a direct quote but that quote shouldn't be from Southall.
• More overlinking – Crystal Palace, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur
• "Getting off to a good start in 1996–97, Everton were beaten six times in a row after Christmas..." Slightly odd prose; suggest perhaps "After a promising start to the 1997–7 season, Everton were beaten..."
• "though rejected a transfer offer" → "though he rejected a transfer offer"?
• "I'll let you manage the reserves, so long as you keep your head down, do whatever I tell you, and I won't tell everybody you're a bad influence" – what an odd thing for Durban to say and completely out of context with the picture painted in the rest of the article. Was Southall a noted trouble-maker? If so, the article could perhaps better reflect this other than his 'post-sitting non-protest'?

Southall seemed baffled as to why Durban said that to him.--EchetusXe 21:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Presuming that there is something in his autobiography along those lines, it might be worth adding a sentence conveying Southall's bafflement? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, agreed.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Later years"

• "His 61st appearance for the "Gulls", it also proved to be his last, and he left the club after recovering from his injury." Slightly odd prose here; suggest a slight rewrite?
• Premier League is overlinked.

International career

• Suggest starting "Wales manager..." rather than "Manager..." and perhaps bluelinking Wales?

The rest of this section looks fine to me

Style of play

• "Renown" or "renowned"?
• Is "tremendous reactions" puffery? I'd like to see that directly quoted from a reliable source.

This has indeed been changed but the ref is still 'toffeeweb'. I'm still not convinced that this is a reliable source. Can you find a better source perhaps? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I have added another source.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Coaching and management career

• Bobby Gould is linked again. So is Mark Hughes. Suggest removal of blue links
• Slight prose suggestion; "made a stinging rebuke" changed to "issued a rebuke"?
• Again, some overlinking; Terry Yorath should be unlinked.

References

• Ref 2 appears to be dead. Can a new link be found?
• Ref 9 is also dead.
• Ref 114; is the Toffeeweb website a reliable source? I might be wrong but I thought it was a fansite?

I have added another reference.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ref 133 looks like a blog of some sort. Is it a reliable source?

This still looks like an unreliable source to me. Can it be replaced with a better source? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I can't see another source. I don't think its a massively important fact to include in the article.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Is Ref.135 reliable? It looks like a fansite which relies on, among other sources, wikipedia (per the bottom of this page).

And again; is this a reliable source? If not, can it be replaced? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I can't see another source.--EchetusXe 20:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

General Comments

• There is a huge reliance on one source (namely Neville's autobiography). Whilst it doesn't factor into this review overall, I would have liked to have seen a wider bibliography and one or two statements would be much better coming from other sources (such as the Hillsborough one cited above).
• I suggest taking out the link to wiki commons; there is only one Southall picture there and it is available in the infobox.
• The article is very much lacking in images. The Good Article Criteria provide that an article be illustrated where possible and I would have liked to have seen more than the rather low quality image in the infobox. Are there any more images to use? If not, so be it.

I take it that there are no other images to use? Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Overall A mostly well written and fairly comprehensive treatment of the subject, albeit quite a bit of overlinking and some small prose complaints. The above issues look more severe than they are and I expect they could be fixed reasonably quickly. I'll pop the article on hold pending a response. Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I have followed the suggestions you have made.--EchetusXe 21:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Almost there: just a couple of small outstanding issues to resolve above Meetthefeebles (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Still a couple of outstanding issues here; if we can clear these up we can wrap up this review... Meetthefeebles (talk) 18:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

A soundly written, comprehensively referenced and engaging article on a fascinating footballer.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I've assessed this article against the requirements of WP:WIAGA and, in the light of improvements carried out, I'm awarding GA-status. Well done! Please consider reviewing an article against the criteria. Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)