Talk:New Zealand royal honours system

Untitled

Where do we list the recipients? Robin Patterson 01:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Equivalence chart

Perhaps this could be included, though I do not know whether this is a "creative" or "novel" presentation not allowed for Wikipedia:

Honours Reform 1996

	New system
Order of New Zealand	Member
New Zealand Order of Merit	K. Grand Companion	K. Companion	Companion	Officer	Member
Queen's Service Order				Companion
	Old system
Order of the Bath	K. Grand Cross	K. Commander	Companion
Order of St Michael and St George	K. Grand Cross	K. Commander	Companion
Order of the British Empire	K. Grand Cross	K. Commander	Commander	Officer	Member
Miscellaneous	Companion of Honour	Knight Bachelor
N.b. K.: "Knight" Knight Grand Companion of the NZ Order of Merit changed to Principal Companion in 2000. Source: NZ Government press release 2 May 1996

"Knight" abbreviated to make chart narrow enough for low resolutions.

202.89.155.157 23:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reference Links to Government sites not correct

Many of the links in the Reference section lead to a"page not found" message — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.252.60.18 (talk) 10:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Name Change - New Zealand Royal Honours System

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Orders, decorations, and medals of New Zealand → New Zealand Royal Honours System – I would like to rename this page to "New Zealand Royal honours system" to match the name used by the New Zealand Government since the 1995 review. Please indicate your opinion below and does anyone object to making a decision after 4 weeks? ---- Karl Stephens (talk) 13:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

(Thanks for the note, Karl.) If it matches what the Govt calls it, it should be a sensible move. Preferably sentence case unless the Govt always uses Title Case. We should check whether anything it currently covers is not "Royal". Robin Patterson (talk) 04:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I failed to mention that "New Zealand Royal Honours System" (in title case) is the name used in the original 1995 review (The New Zealand Royal Honours System : The Report of the Prime Minister’s Honours Advisory Committee - Overview), Government House (New Zealand Royal Honours), The New Zealand Cabinet Manual, (ed 1996, ch 1.52 "The New Zealand Royal Honours System") and by DPMC Nomination Form. Balance any other name against the fact that the honours unit of DPMC is responsible for the honours system so they're authoritative for the name. ---- Karl Stephens (talk) 08:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support as per nomination. Schwede66 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support per nom and because it just sounds better. -Rrius (talk) 17:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Needed changes

Moved from Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy

 – Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 11:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I should have stated from the outset that there is a problem where New Zealand recipients of the Knight/Dame Grand Companion and Knight/Dame Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit are classified as being members of a British Order of Knighthood (or as being British).

The solution is to use categories to describe the type of knighthood and honours system under which it was awarded. It is not necessary to distinguish citizenship because (with only a single exception) all Knight/Dames in the New Zealand Royal Honours System must be New Zealand citizens. The following changes are required:

1. Rename Category:New Zealand recipients of British titles to Category:New Zealand Recipients of a UK Knighthood because "titles" is ambiguous and is not limited to knighthoods but includes Life Peerages (Baron Cooke of Thorndon), Baronetages (Sir Charles Clifford, 1st baronet of Flaxbourne and Sir Joseph Ward, 1st Baronet of Wellington), Peerages (Ernest Rutherford, 1st Baron Rutherford of Nelson) and the Honourifics of Right Honourable and Honourable.
2. create a new category Category:Recipients of a New Zealand Knighthood
3. enroll in Category:New Zealand knights/Category:New Zealand dames all New Zealand citizens who receive the appellation of Sir or Dame under either the NZ or Imperial Honours system.
4. enroll in Category:Recipients of a New Zealand Knighthood citizens of any nation who receive the appellation of Sir or Dame in the New Zealand Royal Honours System. With the exception of The Duke of Edinburgh this category is solely New Zealand citizens as honorary Knights do not receive the appellation of Sir/Dame.
5. enroll in Category:New Zealand Recipients of a UK Knighthood all New Zealand citizens who receive the appellation of Sir or Dame under the Imperial Honours system.
6. Changes (4) & (5) would intentionally enroll in Category:Recipients of a New Zealand Knighthood & Category:New Zealand Recipients of a UK Knighthood New Zealand citizens who receive the appellation of Sir or Dame in both the NZ and Imperial Honours system.

To accomplish these changes the following actions are required:

1. Breaking the link from Category:New Zealand knights & Category:New Zealand dames to Category:New Zealand recipients of British titles and Category:British knights by nationality
2. Place all New Zealand honours and awards under Category:New Zealand Royal Honours System (should consider classifying honours/awards as gallantry, bravery, campaign and Meritorious & Long Service in same manner as NZ Government).
3. Use the template:post-nominals/NZL-cats to attach Category:New Zealand knights to post-nominals KG, GNZM*+, DNZM, KNZM, GCB, GCMG, OM, GBE, KB, KCMG, KBE & Kt.
4. Use the template:post-nominals/NZL-cats to attach Category:Recipients of a New Zealand Knighthood to post-nominals GNZM*+, DNZM & KNZM.
5. Use the template:post-nominals/NZL-cats to attach Category:New Zealand recipients of a UK Knighthood to post-nominals KG, GCB, GCMG, GBE, KB, KCMG, KBE & Kt.
6. The template:post-nominals/NZL-cats is already used to attach Category:Knights Grand Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit to post-nominal GNZM+ & Category:Knights Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit to post-nominal KNZM+.
7. Use the template:post-nominals/NZL-cats to attach the existing UK categories to the relevant British Knighthood and post-nominal.
8. Enroll Category:New Zealand Recipients of a UK Knighthood into Category:British knights by nationality (That last category would benefit from a change to move the subject away from nationality of members to emphasis the Honours System under which it is awarded. This would better reflect membership includes New Zealanders, Australians and Canadians as substantive and not honorary members).

*The template:post-nominals/NZL-cats can distinguish gender between Knight and Dame using GNZM and GNZMf to render the same link but a different category.
+ For Actions (3), (4), (5) & (6) assume the equivalent categories for Dame Grand Companion/Dame Companion.

The outcome of these changes and actions will be:

1. A New Zealand recipient of a GCMG would have categories (Rule 7) Category:Knights Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George and (Rule 3) Category:New Zealand knights
2. A New Zealand recipient of a GNZM and GCMG would have categories (Rule 6) Category:Knights Grand Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit, (Rule 7) Category:Knights Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George, (Rule 5) Category:New Zealand recipient of a UK Knighthood and (Rule 3) Category:New Zealand knights
3. A New Zealand recipient of a GNZM would have categories (Rule 6) Category:Knights Grand Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit and (Rule 3) Category:New Zealand knights

I'd like you opinion on the problem statement, changes, actions and outcomes as well as the names of the new categories particularly with Category:New Zealand Recipients of a UK Knighthood with the nationality designation with "British Knighthood" or "Honours system of UK" or something else if more appropriate.

---

Karl Stephens (talk) 10:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Kostas20142 (talk) 18:31, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

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New Zealand royal honours system → Orders, decorations, and medals of New Zealand – Per WP:CONSISTENCY with formula in all other entries in Category:Orders, decorations, and medals by country along with its subcategories. PPEMES (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. As shown in the previous requested move, the current title is the common name found in reliable sources. Celia Homeford (talk) 12:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as per previous move discussion. Schwede66 18:36, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Except all equivalent articles in the category tree do not have this structure. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — MaterialWorks 00:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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• New Zealand royal honours system → Orders, decorations, and medals of New Zealand
• Australian honours and awards system → Orders, decorations, and medals of Australia
• Papua New Guinea honours system → Orders, decorations, and medals of Papua New Guinea
• Civil decorations of Pakistan → Orders, decorations, and medals of Pakistan

– WP:CONSISTENT with other articles. — Hemant Dabral (📞 • ✒) 04:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Hemant Dabral (📞 • ✒) 17:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Note - I've merged several related discussions[1][2][3] here as they had the same rationale and nom.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:CONCISE. Merge being done, I don't see any reason why these should be moved and not the other articles moved to this format. I would suggest a "[Country/Nationality] hono(u)rs system is best. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Except for Pakistan, as we also have Awards and decorations of the Pakistan Armed Forces. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject New Zealand has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:11, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per the previous two move proposals on Talk:New Zealand royal honours system.—Jon (talk) 12:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per estar8806. Anyone looking for the honours page for their country would search for "Country/Nationality" first. In Australia, the honours system has been named Australian honours system since its inception 1975.--Oronsay (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Latest edit

Kia ora Paora, not sure whether you have this page on your watchlist. If not, could you please check the rather substantial edit made by Nford24? You know better than I would whether that's all ok. For example, I'm unconvinced that it's a good idea to remove previous awards like QSO. Schwede66 21:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's the same award, have you read the royal warrant? Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

In response to 2405:DA40:434D:3B00:51CD:39E:7B96:F5A2 who reverted the edit, the Royal Warrant states specifically "And whereas We are desirous that the style and designation of the Order should be altered to “The King’s Service Order”:" on line line 15 and again on line 17 "First, alter the Warrant of 13 March 1975 by renaming it “Statutes of the King’s Service Order”; and". To me that makes it quite clear that the Queen's Service Order and Queen's Service Medal were both renamed and not discontinued as awards. A reference would need to be provided that states they were discontented and that the King's Service Order and King's Service Medal are entirely new awards.

It should also be pointed out that the exact same name change happened last year (and in 1952 for the first five) with the King's Commendation for Bravery, King's Commendation for Bravery in the Air, King's Commendation for Valuable Service, King's Police Medal, King's Fire Service Medal, King's Gallantry Medal, King's Ambulance Service Medal, King's Volunteer Reserves Medal. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I haven't. And I don't plan to become an expert on the matter either. What I'm worried about is not the legal status, but whether the likes of QSO should disappear from this page without mention. That does not feel right to me. Schwede66 04:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

References