Talk:Newport (town), Vermont

Misinformation

This article contains a great deal of misinformation regarding Newport the Town (known as Newport Center zip code 05857), which will (hopefully) be corrected over time by professionals based on research using historical documents rather than inaccurate, confusing, and misleading information posted on the internet.

Were you referring to the misinformation posted online by the Secretary of State, Deborah Markowitz? Or the misinformation posted by the legislature when they authorized the Village of Newport Center to disincorporate? Student7 (talk) 03:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Disincorporated, but what was the name for the town? The official state document listing the town as Newport Center (dated 1980's) disappeared off the internet.

To quote a famous Newport historian.... "After Oct 8,1861, Newport Center became officially Newport Town although the name is used interchangebly to this day." (1978)

REF: Emily M Nelson. historian and author of Frontier Crossroads Vol 1 pg 151 ISBN 0-914016-42-3 I'm not sure what happened Oct 8,1861. If anyone knows, please publish it.

According to Emily Nelson (1978), Newport Center, or Newport Town were both used as the name of the town, with Newport Center being the most widely used. To this day, the majority of residents still refer to their town as Newport Center. The US Post Office lists the town as Newport Center (zip code 05857).

Newport (city) on the other hand is zip code 05855.

When the Newport historian Emily Nelson was still alive, I talked with her at great length concerning the history of Newport Center, as well as reviewing historical documents and maps which she claimed were the only left in existence.

The information regarding the villages of Newport Center and South Newport is historical information, suitable only for research. See disincorporated.

1861 is when the village of Newport (later to become the western half of the city of Newport) was incorporated. I don't know if that is related to what you're saying. --Polaron | Talk 23:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm really unclear what you mean: if you look at the map, it's not Newport Center, it's Newport. Unless I understand wrongly, Newport Center was a village in the town of Newport that disincorporated 77 years ago. I'd guess from what I know of Vermont local government that the situation was similar to Jericho today: a village located within the larger town. I don't see how this is any different from Weathersfield Center: there's an article on it, and if you want to you can write an article on Newport Center, but the town itself is Newport. Nyttend (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think locals do tend to call the town as "Newport Center" primarily because that is what the post office calls it, presumably to differentiate it from the city of Newport, which is simply known as "Newport" by the post office. But yes, the town name is just Newport and 75% of the population is located in the former incorporated village of Newport Center so most town residents probably interchange the two names. --Polaron | Talk 23:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Newport Center is a village which is unincorporated. The town now consists of the unincorporated village of Newport Center. There are no other villages. Within that village is a "village center" (generic term) where the post office, town offices, school and churches are located. It will be necessary to examine the incorporation papers to determine the boundaries of the village, which were last shown as extending to the north, west, and east boundaries of the town itself.

I think the local historians were confusing the issue. There was always a Town of Newport (only). It had two villages originally - Newport village and Newport Center Village, like Brownington and a lot of other towns. It's okay to have more than one village in a town, right? When the village incorporated itself with West Derby, it became Newport city. Not much of a change since everyone called it "Newport" anyway. But Newport Town still existed, much larger than the city and containing Newport Center incorporated village as before. The only change was that bit of land was subtracted.

To distinguish it from the city, local people began refering to Newport Town as "Newport Center." This worked particularly well when the Center was still incorporated as a village. This got lost a bit when they disincorporated, but some people still wished to avoid ambiguity so they called it "Newport Center." But if you go to the Town Clerk's office of Newport Center, you will find the annual report with "Newport Town" on it. It never changed.

A check of annual reports you reference refer to the Newport Center Fire Department.

Residents have Newport Center shown on their VT driver's license as the town. Their mail goes to Newport Center. They live in Newport Center according to all their documents. The newspapers, police, fire, and magazines all reference Newport Center.

Over the years, I have had the opportunity to talk with people who were born in Newport Center in the late 1800's and spent their entire life in the town. They unanimously insisted that the town was known as Newport Center all their life.

There is only one village (not two as reported here) and the name is Newport Center. It has a village center (generic term village) which is where the Post Office, school, Clerk's office, and Churches are located. The village extended of the borders of the town. There was no other municipality.

There are historic maps that have Newport Center written across the entire map, and looking at historic documents and the location of the residents listed as living in Newport Center confirms the fact that the village extended to the borders of the town. As a result, the town and Newport Center are one. The map can be found in the archives at the Goodrich Memorial Library in Newport.

South Newport is an area of the town. It is not a village by any definition of the term village.

When reviewing U.S. census data, the town is referred to as Newport Town based on the following:

The term ‘‘municipality’’ as defined by The Census of Governments applies to the cities and incorporated villages in Vermont. Towns, to which the term ‘‘municipalities’’ is applied by Vermont statutes, are counted for census purposes as townships rather than municipal governments (see below). Unlike cities, which exist outside the area of any town, villages are included within town areas.

The same thing would happen to Barton if Barton Village became a city (ha!). The surrounding town would still be Barton Town though some people, to differentiate, might call it "Orleans" just to avoid ambiguity. But it wouldn't be. Student7 (talk) 23:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

---

The words town, village, and center are causing confusion.

The first settlement carved out of the wilderness, was an area of Newport which became a village and the population and commerce center in the early 1800's. It was known as Newport Center. It incorporated under this name in 1908, and disincorporated in 1931. It is still known as Newport Center.

The sparsely populated southeastern portion of Newport of the mid 1800's was known as Pickeral Point. The name was changed to Lake Bridge.

By the late 1800's, the railroads and tourism transformed the Lake Bridge area (Pickeral Point) into the population center of Newport. This part of Newport became a thriving village and tourist destination. It was far different in nature than the farming community which comprised most of the area.

By the 1900's, this unique small portion of Newport (as it was originally established) split and combined with portions of surrounding towns creating what is now Newport (city).

Newport as it was originally established (minus Lake Bridge) is now called Newport Center or Newport Town. Both names are in common use.

There is little comparison to other villages and towns in Vermont. Newport (city) is a direct result of the arrival of trains and tourism - not the growth of the town center.

NOTE: A fire in Newport Center town office in the early 1900's destroyed most of the early records. Surviving records are in the library in Newport.

REFERENCES The 1858 map of Newport shows Lake Bridge as a small village.

The book, "Appleton's Illustrated Hand-book of American Summer Resorts" published in 1893 lists Pickeral Point (Lake Bridge) as a vacation destination. By this time the population soared to over 3,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs) 22:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That sounds about right. None of that information contradicts what's in the article. If you have a reference for this, you are most welcome to add it to the article. What specifically is your objection to the current article? --Polaron | Talk 23:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Airport

How do we justify the airport statement here when it is in Coventry? I've tried to discourage editors from inserting stuff in town articles that were really in adjacent towns---unless we want to say that it is in "greater Newport" or something. Student7 (talk) 19:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the article for the airport refers to a source that speaks of it as being in Newport. I guess there's a source for Coventry, so I can't see why saying the airport is in Newport is now acceptable. Nyttend (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the airport is named Newport Airport because it is supposed to serve the city of Newport and its suburbs. But if you look at a map, the airport is completely located within the town limits of Coventry. --Polaron | Talk 21:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(For the record, I've copied Nyttend's contribution into Coventry. Taking full credit for his research, of course. :) Student7 (talk) 22:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that I didn't have a map. Nyttend (talk) 04:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

New thread March 18, 2008

(It was confusing, so I am moving the information inserted into the above by unregistered editor, DrDerosier. Otherwise we can tell new comments from the old)

Only one Village by any definition. Newport Center did not cease to exist in 1931, it became unincorporated and is alive and well. Town records clearly state that the town includes the unincorporated Village of Newport Center. There are no other villages in the town.

South what? The official map of Newport published in 1859 by Loomis & Way, from actual surveys under the direction of H.F Walling does not show any village by the name of "South Newport". It does show Lake Bridge which is included as an inset. This village later became Newport (city). This detailed map includes roads and names of the residents at the time.

South Newport, shown as an area of the town, is not a village (incorporated, unincorporated or generic by definition).

The village never ceased to exist.

The only village that never ceased to exist is Newport Center. That's an historic fact.

[part two of new thread]

Wait a minute.......The official 1859 map clearly records the village you are referring to as being named Lake Bridge. It even includes an inset shown as "LAKE BRIDGE" (now the western half of the city). It was a village (generic term) in the town of Newport. Many other historic documents confirm this information. The village of Lake Bridge was earlier known as Pickeral Point

I think you have two points. One is that the village of Newport Center did not cease to exist when it was disincorporated by the State legislature. We agree. That is why in the lead paragraph, the article explains that there are two villages in the town, one of which is Newport Center." Okay?

Your second point it that there is no such village as "South Newport." Please see Pointer to list that contains "South Newport". Search for South Newport in that list. In Wikipedia, if I find a reference that says 2+2= 5 and footnote it, and you can't come up with a reference which shows that it is really equal to four, the "correct" wikipedia answer is FIVE not four! If you don't like "South Newport" fine. Come up with a better footnote or reference. We don't do things off the top of our head here. We cite authority, not memory.

Rootsweb is not an authority on villages and towns, but a very valuable reference of areas that people may find in their genealogy research.

Both village names are unofficial at this point. Evansville (to take an example from another area, is a village only by virtue of people calling it that. It has NO standing with any government. It has no "official" name. If people started calling "Brownington Square" tommorrow, then it would change. The city of Newport can't do that, nor the town of Newport. Both are official titles given by the state legislature. No unincorporated village (or disincorporated one) can say the same thing. Student7 (talk) 20:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to call my car a village tomorrow - hopefully it will emerge as a village.

There is nothing unofficial about Newport Center, as evidenced below.

NewportTownZoning06.pdf

"For the purpose of this bylaw, the Town of Newport is hereby considered a single district, including the unincorporated Village of Newport Center." Notice that no other village is included, since no other village existed or exists.

To makeup a name, or call a geographical area a village, it must fall within the definition of a village. In this case South Newport, a remote area of the town, fails the test for a village by any definition. It does however qualify as a geographic area of the town. Town zoning does not recognize such a village as quoted above. This document is available from the state website. NewportTownZoning06.pdf

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs) 13:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC) 

Newport Center is a village which has existed since the early 1800's. In the early 1800's it was known as Newport Centre. It is the only village in Newport Town, and therefore Newport Center is commonly used when referring to the town. The two are one. It was incorporated for a short period of time in the early 1900's. The town offices are located in the village center of Newport Center village. (this may sound confusing to some people). Newport Center shares the same town office and town officers. To reiterate, the two are one.

Below is a quote from the following published document: NewportTownZoning06.pdf

"For the purpose of this bylaw, the Town of Newport is hereby considered a single district, including the unincorporated Village of Newport Center."

Nowhere does it describe the boundaries of the village because the village extended to the borders of the town. The village and the town are consider one and the same for the purpose of zoning. They share the same government. The zip code for this village is 05857, which is the zip code for the entire town. Newport Center and Newport Town are both the same geographically. The town offices are located in the village center or stated more clearly "center of the village".

Evidence of the boundaries of the village can be obtained by reviewing the list of residents of Newport Center from various periods of history, and locating the roads on maps of the same time period. Based on this research, the village once extended from the village center to the north, east, and west town borders, but excluded the remote southern portion of the town. The unanswered question is did the village extend it's boundaries to the southern border of the town when the village was unincorporated (town/village shared governing body), or when it was incorporated (with it's own governing body).

Research using census data will lead to confusion since the US census data enumerates the residents under the town. There is however regional census data which does not group the residents together.

I'm not hung up on "South Newport." If you can find a reference that says that Newport Center is the only village in the town of Newport, that's fine. From the quote, though, I'm not sure this one is it. The quote listed seems to say (to me) that the use of "the Town of Newport" and "Newport Center" are one and the same. I can agree with that. I think that's what a lot of the above discussion was about. I think we're all agreed on that one.

Please read the facts not fiction section...........

But to me, it doesn't say that "Newport Center village" is the only village in the town of Newport. If we can find a reference, a bit better than the genealogy link, that does not list "South Newport" as the referenced listing does, I'm willing see it deleted. But let's face it, there's a part of Newport city that has outgrown the city limits south of town towards the airport. And maybe it has always been there. I think that is what the term "South Newport" means.Student7 (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you may be right, as well as others, but I can't find any solid evidence. There may be none.

South Newport is shown on many old maps, and is a geographic area. In terms of genealogy research, it is listed as a place people lived and died. It appears on maps that have their dates altered by "white out". That in itself distorts history. It is not a village nor was a village when Town Zoning came about as reported in the records available on the state website. The document is:

NewportTownZoning06.pdf

It is however an interesting study, should you have the time available to do it. It was, and is a very remote part of the town, which today is an area well known for hunting camps. Many roads are class 4, and therefore not plowed in the winter. If you wish to explore the area, use a 4 wheel jeep. I lost my muffler in ruts trying to explore this area.

"Village" here refers simply to a named locality within the town, which is how New England uses the term. In Vermont, however, it can lead to confusion as there are also incorporated villages. South Newport had its own post-office in the late 1800s and in that sense qualifies as a village (i.e. a named locality that is within a town). So, while it never became an incorporated village, there is nothing unusual about calling it a village. The disincorporation of Newport Center village is more correctly termed its consolidation with the town of Newport. This process is quite common in Connecticut, where, for example, the former city of Rockville was consolidated with the town of Vernon, with the final government being that of the town. I understand your point about the village and town being one and the same, which is something many non-New Englanders don't get. But that doesn't preclude the existence of other villages within the consolidated town/village. For example, going back to the Vernon CT case - there exists a village of Talcotville within the town even though Rockville and Vernon are consolidated. In the end, is your complaint about the article simply about it calling South Newport a village? --Polaron | Talk 13:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Polaron, thanks for your edits and your response. While I should allow DrDerosier to speak for himself, I believe that he disagrees with the existence of a second village called "South Newport." (I confess to rarely hearing this used because it is lumped together mentally with the City of Newport which is immediately adjacent but really a separate political entity). The editor is familiar with nearby Derby and Brownington Towns each of which contains several villages. In Brownington, none of these are incorporated. Student7 (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Dr_Desrosi and other authorities are all in agreement.

South Newport

Please don't erase this again without discussing it here first and showing a reference, and getting some sort of consensus.

How does the editor account (or name) those dwellings that are outside the city of Newport south of the city? This area is in the Town, not the city of Newport. This is the area the reference is calling "South Newport." It deserves its own name separate from the city of Newport IMO. Student7 (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It must be erased because it's simply not true, and there is ample evidence if you take the time to look at it. The PDF file is filed with the State of Vermont and available on the state website.

Interesting that someone should use the term Newport. South Newport has been there for a long time on maps, but eventually became part of the town, not the city. It's a geographical area, not a village by any definition. Is it outside of Newport Center? Nobody seems to know. That's the unanswered question that even town officials could not answer. Shame on them. I believe that it fell within the village limits at some time in history, but I can't at this time prove it. Hopefully you can. Emily Nelson, if she were alive could shed light on this issue. From what I recall, the town didn't want to maintain the roads in this very remote rural area. That may be a clue. It may not be documented.

This has already been answered by authorities. South Newport is a geographical area, not a village, not a town, not a state, and not a country. {{unsigned|It must be erased because it's simply not true, and there is ample evidence if you take the time to look at it. The PDF file is filed with the State of Vermont and available on the state website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

Misinformation II

I can't list all 15,000 pages found on Google for a town with only 1,500 people with the keywords "Newport Center" Douglas and Vermont, but for those students who can only do research with a click of a mouse button, rather than use their feet to do research, the following links might be helpful. Any attempt to change history would be a disgrace and make wikipedia useless. Newport Center is unique, well established, well known, and has nearly 200 years of history.

Important reading: http://vermont-archives.org/govhistory/governance/Villages/gillies.htm Please read carefully. Newport Center did not abandon the village!

Just a few of the over 15,000 references to Newport Center. http://governor.vermont.gov/tools/index.php?topic=GovPressReleases&id=2423&v=Article http://governor.vermont.gov/tools/index.php?topic=GovPressReleases&id=1985&v=Article http://www.vso.org/code/directories.html http://www.plantehanley.com/Carford_Article.jsp http://www.vtlottery.com/news/daily-winners.asp http://vtlottery.com/winners/recent-winners.asp?month=8&year=2005 http://www.northlandjournal.com/stories53.html http://www.vermonter.com/vtpress/?m=200702 http://web.vtc.edu/users/lvh01150/MayGraduates.pdf http://vermont-elections.org/elections1/2004finalprimarycand817.pdf http://www.northlandjournal.com/issues.html http://www.fedspending.org/faads/faads.php?&fiscal_year=2004&principal_place_state_code=50&sortby=u&datype=T&reptype=r&database=faads&detail=0&printnav=0 http://vermontgenealogy.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/burlington-free-press-obituaries-082000/ http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050523/NEWS/50521001/0/FRONTPAGE

Some of the pages referencing Newport Center have disappeared from the www because people somehow believe the misinformation being reported on Wikipedia (Newport Town). An international disgrace resulting in distortion of history!

There should be a Newport Center page, because it's a unique part of the history of Vermont. The wikipedia Newport Town page must accurately describe the town commonly known as Newport Center, which the post office accurately refers to as Newport Center. The residents of Newport Center who were born in the 1800's who I personally interviewed while studying the history of this area decades ago, would be outraged at the misinformation by the students involved in this inaccurate reporting. People lived, went to school, were married, and died in Newport Center. You can't rewrite history. Newport Center is a real place, and nothing has changed except the administration, which may or may not understand the history of this area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs) 20:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Your first link above does confirm that it was an act of consolidation between the village of Newport Center and the town of Newport. That being so, it only strengthens the fact that the village and town should be covered together on the same article as their histories are pretty much the same. However, that does not change the fact that there is no municipal corporation at present known as Newport Center. Newport Center already redirects here and there is nothing preventing anyone from discussing Newport Center in this article. You do have some merit in that Newport Center may be a more common name. You an try proposing a page move at WP:RM to see what the wider community thinks. Also, being a consolidated village-town does not preclude the existence of other named settlements in the area so calling South Newport a village is again not unusual (although Connecticut has begun using the term "section of town" rather than "village" in recent years so maybe you do have a point). --Polaron | Talk 20:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

South Newport is a geographical area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

FACTS not FICTION

I interviewed a well known historian who is a resident of Newport Center with 24 years as a member of the town planning commission. As an authority on the town government, He agrees with the statement that Newport Town and Newport Center are one. There are no boundaries for the village of Newport Center. Newport Center and Newport Town have been one and the same place since Newport city split from the town. The Post Office correctly identifies Newport Center geographically, and has assigned it the zip code 05857. Newport Center covers the entire area of Newport Town, and as a result, all town residents live in Newport Center which is their legal address. The map can show either Newport Town or Newport Center across it. Both are correct, however the resident live in Newport Center. The following is a summary of facts:

In the beginning was Duncansboro, which was formed October 26, 1781
Duncansboro was chartered October 30, 1802
The name was changed to Newport October 30, 1816.
Newport consisted of two villages - Newport Center, and Lake Bridge
There were two stations by 1863 - one in Newport Center, and one in Lake Bridge.
Newport Center village was incorporated in 1908.
By 1917, the village (originally known as Lake Bridge) split away, combined with portions of surrounding towns and became Newport (city).Newport (city) was a newly formed geographic area which included portions of surrounding towns.
Newport Center (incorporated) and Newport (town) became one and the same.
Newport Center village was unincorporated in 1931, but not dissolved.
Newport Center village has no boundaries within the town.
Newport Center village includes a village center, where the town offices are located.
Newport Center village has never ceased to exist, and town residents have a legal address of Newport Center.
The US postal zip code for Newport Center is 05857 which is geographically the town. Newport (town).
Newport Center and Newport Town are one.

South Newport - a fantasy? As an authority, he also stated emphatically stated that there is only one village in the town, The Town Zoning report filed with the State of Vermont further confirms this fact. South Newport is either a myth, misprint, or one of the many names used for the village of Newport (former Lake Bridge). The reference used by the individual who entered this incorrect information used a source that was not authoritative, but merely a listed of places that are found in records.

This wikipedia article must be cleaned up to clearly state the facts that Newport Center and Newport Town are the same place geographically. Failure to do so will perpetuate misinformation and lead to confusion, as it already has. References to the fictitious South Newport Village must also be removed. There is no such village.

The first railroad came to Newport in 1863. Construction began in 1862. That information should be added since the railroad had a major influence on Newport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs) 20:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't enter word of mouth here. It has to be in print or it's not true. If we look out the window and see something else, tough. In print or nothing. Printed facts will stop this argument.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Student7 (talk • contribs)

Are you looking for mouse clicks or official documents? Official documents were created by the authority interviewed. If you wish to review an on-line document, please locate NewportTownZoning06.pdf on the state website. It is available.

If you are looking for facts regarding the railroads, there are a number of books published which you can either purchase or obtain from the public library. Sorry ... you can't be lazy, click your way through history, and fall asleep at the mouse. Research may require some reading, and talking with people of authority. Everything you need is not published on the www. On the other hand, we all would be most appreciative of your efforts in transcribing the thousands of documents that have never been digitized.

NOTE: There is a great deal of misinformation published on the www, and this article is an example. Turning wikipedia into the greatest source of misinformation is irresponsible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

Try:

• http://www.milebymile.com/main/United_States/Vermont/Interstate_91/United_States_Vermont_road_map_travel_guides.html (see under exit 28)
• http://www.milebymile.com/main/United_States/Vermont/Interstate_91/United_States_Vermont_road_map_travel_guides.html
• http://crs.uvm.edu/community_data/gazetteer.htm#S
• http://vermont-elections.org/elections1/VTPlaceNames.pdf
• http://www.topozone.com/states/Vermont.asp?county=Orleans&feature=Populated+Place
• http://vermont.hometownlocator.com/VT/Orleans/index.cfm
• http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/55new/55-text/vt.txt

Student7 (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can find a written reference to the railway, please add it and cite the reference. Particularly the rail line that goes up the west side of the lake through Newport Town.Student7 (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Go to the library.... sorry. There are videos, books, official documents, but they are not clickable. They require you use your feet. The authority interviewed has published information but doesn't use a computer. You could however instead of being lazy go and digitize this information (with permission of course) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

Books are fine except they really should be scholarly in tone. Town histories are sometimes puff sheets glossing over history but even they have many usable facts.

By the way, assigning me adjectives is in violation of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Please stop. Student7 (talk) 03:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Please add to thread at the bottom instead of editing your remarks in the middle. It is very confusing. We can address one question, or series of questions, at a time.

Please see Newport (city), Vermont for their version, of how things transpired. The Duncanboro history is fine. But what is now Newport city was Newport village. (Question: Why do they have to call themselves "Newport city" in the article if there is only one Newport?

Unincorporated villages are amorphous. They are anywhere anyone wants them. What are the limits of Evansville? Do they extend to the boundaries of Brownington? Or Beebe? To the limits of Derby? Most people would disagree. If you can find anything that was orginated outside of the town clerks office that refers to the "Town of Newport" as "The Town of Newport Center" great. I didn't create this article. It was done from official records using official naming conventions which, by the way, appear nearly everyplace but in Newport Center village, apparently. Student7 (talk) 12:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I just moved the Lake Bridge stuff to the Newport city history. Not footnoted but it sounds about right. We'll see how it goes there. Student7 (talk) 13:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Request for Third Party comment

The 3rd party who is upset at the people who have no sense (his words) doesn't own a computer, and doesn't want to. He however has been part of the town government for decades, and authored the documents you have yet to digitize. Here is an opportunity for someone with ambition! South Newport is a geographical region, and he stated that quite emphatically, although he conceded that it may have been a reference to one of the many unofficial names for what is now the city. If the people of authority do not own a computer, you'll need to speak directly with the authority. If talking with the authority is not valid, then Wikipedia is not a valid source of information, but merely a number of links of digitized information of questionable validity that provide a means of perpetuating misinformation. A forum to turn truth into lies, and facts into fiction.

You are dealing with a town of less than 2000 people, and 30% of them are too young to use a computer, and probably 30% are too old. Of the remaining 40%, half have little to no knowledge of history, and the remaining half are not interested. It's your responsibility to seek out the authorities as I have. Not computer users.

Over decades, I have spent countless hours pouring through the records in the archives at the Goodrich Library in Newport, as well as sharing information with Emily Nelson when she was alive. I have also interviewed many Newport Center residents who were born in the late 1800's (now deceased). I have also invested countless hours pouring through all the records and maps in the Newport Town vault. I am neither an authority or a historian, just educated and interested in facts not fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

This is a request for an outside comment on this question. Student7 (talk) 22:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Student7. I hope someone will step forward. If not, I hope you will step out and gather the facts. A number of residents think you are correct in your inference that South Newport, a geographic area, was also another (unofficial) name for what is now the city. We know it's NOT a village in Newport Town as misreported here. That's documented and verifiable. On the other hand, based on an unpublished poem written in the 1800's which I obtained from Emily Nelson, it could very well have been another unofficial name for what is now the city.

What's lost in history, but remains in writings and poetry, is the political forces (substantial investors) in the tourist area (now city) that didn't like the name Lake Bridge and wanted the name Newport! The rest of course is history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Desrosiers (talk • contribs)

South Newport does exist. Per the US Board of Geographic Names, there was post office there in the late 19th century. Maps show it as the area roughly south of VT 100 in the narrow southern part of the town. The main settlement is at the foot of Black Hill about three miles south of the state highway. South Newport does not refer to the current City of Newport. We've already de-emphasized South Newport and do not refer to it as a village. But we can't deny the fact that it exists as a named locality within the town. --Polaron | Talk 23:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It has never been an issue whether South Newport was or is a geographic area. Dr Desrosiers (talk) 13:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so now that we got that straightened out, what is wrong with how that information is presented now? --Polaron | Talk 13:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please explain exactly what is being requested for comment here? Between the winky formatting and the extensive back and forth I have no idea what the short debate is about. Jessamyn (talk) 00:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even sure myself anymore even though I participated in the discussion above. The focus of the dispute seems to be shifting over time. In any case, the current dispute is whether or not South Newport is a village or not, and whether it should be mentioned at all in the article. The rest of the complaints have largely been already addressed. --Polaron | Talk 01:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if the third party wants, "whether footnotes are needed for assertions that are otherwise debatable" would be helpful. :)Student7 (talk) 13:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

My feeling, as a Vermont resident and realizing that Wikipedia needs to deal with sources as well as "well someone from around town says..." is that if you look stuff up in the library, cite your source. If you talk to historians, cite your source. If you are looking at a document, cite it. I understand that Wikipedia is not supposed to be primary source material, but this is also something where the opinion of "locals" is likely to speak to something that may be non-published and at the same time true. I think if we assume good faith and NPOV on both sides then let someone who has source material in whatever quirky format it's in cite it [and give explanation here on the talk page if they want] and then leave it alone. "village" means something special in Vermont but it's ALSO a legal/govt designation. As long as people are being clear what they're referring to, I don't see how this can go badly. Jessamyn (talk) 18:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

As a real outsider (only been to Vermont once), I'd like to make a couple of comments:

• Post offices tend to be named for the surrounding settlement. If the town of Newport has a community that's called Newport Center, and if there's a post office near that community, it's likely to be named "Newport Center". My road atlas displays a dot for "Newport Center". Both of these are due to the nature of the source: post offices typically are named for communities, and national road atlases don't divide Vermont into its towns; they simply show communities. All that sources like these do is demonstrate that there's a community called "Newport Center".
• Since Vermont has incorporated villages, we really should be wary of using the term "village" in a Vermont context, unless (1) it's accompanied by the word "unincorporated", or (2) it's used to refer to an incorporated village. I think it's reasonable to assume that everybody within and without New England recognizes the term "community" as referring to a built-up area without specifying whether or not it's incorporated: therefore I think it's better that we use "community" or "unincorporated community" for Vermont settlements that would simply be called "villages" in the rest of New England.

And by the way: there's nothing wrong with having a separate article on Newport Center, if you think you could support it enough. There are plenty of articles on unincorporated villages in Vermont. Nyttend (talk) 01:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Please correct... somebody is living in a fairytale land

The property I own in Newport Center (according to the deed) includes the dwelling once owned and occupied by Amos Sawyer, one of the founders of Newport. As a result, I have done a great deal of research over decades.

Tracing records from the offices in Newport Center hits a dead end in the early 1900's due to the fire. Tracing from the beginning in Newport (city) also hits a dead end in the early 1900's due to missing records. Tracing from both ends puts the picture together, although a 1900's owner is missing.

Amos Sawyer is shown as having lived in a place called Duncansboro, Newport, and Newport Center. Did he live in 3 places? No! The maps confirm he lived in the same physical location. The census enumerated him as being in Newport since all villages are grouped together within the town for the purpose of the US census. He lived in Newport Center. At that time in history, Newport included another village which is now the city. Somewhat confusing when you are doing research.

Newport Center, was the first village in the early 1800's. By 1863, the town of Newport had two local governments (villages), each with it's own railroad station. Over time, one of those villages became the city, the other became the town. Both were originally part of Newport. ( Duncansboro based on the original charter).

When Newport Center became a town itself due to the split, it was still Newport Center, and the government was still the Newport Center government. At this point, it didn't matter whether you called it Newport Town or Newport Center. They were one and the same governing body, and physical place. The residents still lived in Newport Center, and the town selectman were the village selectmen. They were one and the same.

There was no village by the name of South Newport, but there was an area called South Newport, and it was in what is now Newport (town) or Newport Center (officially - in terms of legal address). This can be determined from maps which clearly show this area as south of route 100. It was not, and is not a village. It is very rural and remote in nature, and contains many hunting camps.

To preserve that legacy, the town was incorporated as Newport Center. The General Assembly later unincorporated the town, but nothing changed in terms of the geographic area, the village or local government. Newport Center was still Newport Center. It is contained within the town, and is the town.

It is unusual to have a village and town be the same. Usually a village is a smaller region within a town, which in this case it was until the split. In this rather unusual case, the village and the town are the same geographic area. The town has no other villages, and the village was never dissolved. It has no boundaries within the town. To this day Newport Center is still contained within Newport Town. The two are one and the same, and it's heritage is Newport Center. The stewards of Newport Center are proud of it's heritage, and have preserved it up to this time. It is well established and has it's own postal zip code of 05857 which covers the entire geographic area. There is no zip code for the town itself because the town has no area outside of the village. The local government is both town and village government. The people in the town are residents of Newport Center, and therefore the town. The town has a village center, which should not be confused with the name of the village. Some foolishly do.

Throughout time, residents preserved the legacy which is Newport Center - a village and well known place where Newport was first settled and carved out of the wilderness. Locally this geographic area has been, and still is, known as Newport Center, although once Newport Centre, as evidenced by photos of the train station..

The state of Vermont, and the US Census group villages within a town together for various purposes and refers to them collectively as a town. On a local level this creates confusion. The lowest common denominator when you examine the state (which includes towns cities and villages) is in this case, the village. .

Fortunately, Governor Jim Douglas has referred to the town as Newport Center. That ends the confusion. The post office, police, fire, motor vehicles, newspapers, radio, television, real estate agencies, and all others recognize and refer to the geographic area of the town as Newport Center. Residents have Newport Center as their address on their drivers license.

In summary, Newport center is a place that has existed since the beginning. It's was a village, and is a village. The village is located in the Newport Town. The town of Newport and the village are both the same place. For legal purposes, the residents live in Newport Center. For the purpose of the US Census, they live in the town.

What more can be said. When all is said and done, Newport Center and Newport Town are one and the same place. How will this be phrased when describing the town is the discussion.

I interviewed a 90 year old Newport Center resident who confirms this information. Also many other younger residents. The town has always been called Newport Center.

People who live in Newport Center are considered as living in Newport (town), just as a person living in Vermont is considered as living in the USA. It's that simple!

There never has been a village called South Newport,

Sadly, there is a lot of misleading information which is hearsay.

You can discuss this, but you need to fix it so it isn't simply nonsense. Childish and foolish ms-reporting of information that is not fact but fiction. The public records can be reviewed by responsible individuals. They can even be transcribed by an ambitious person.

Those who are bent at publicly posting lies and rumors should get off the Internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notableresident101 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is very usual for the town, village and adjacent city to have the same name in Vermont. There is Rutland (city), Vermont, Rutland (town), Vermont which completely surrounds the city of Rutland. When the city of Rutland was created, the town of Rutland did not automatically revert to its remaining village's name of West Rutland! Looks up the remainder of Vermont cities. They mostly have the same history. The reason that Newport town has the same zip code as the rest of the town is because there aren't enough people in either to support a normal post office! Brownington (which is a separate town. I guess you will have to accept my word for this) has the same zip code as Orleans village which is different than Barton village. Orleans and Barton are in the same town. The post office neither knows nor cares. Their delivery is based on business needs. As long as you use the correct zip code, you can say anything for the name. Try mailing something to yourself in "Beverly Hills, Vermont 05857" Amazingly it will show up at your front door proving just how much the post office cares about political divisions. Apparently Jim Douglas is aware of the terrific sensitivities of the people of Newport Center on this score. Politicians will say anything to avoid offending people. Even avoiding the awful truth! Sorry. Encyclopedias don't have that option. Find a printed reference. Better yet, find a printed reference that shows Rutland Town is now West Rutland Town. BTW Barre Town completely surrounds the city of Barre. It is not called "East Barre" or "West Barre" or whatever its remaining villages were named. Fairly typical of Vermont actually. If you don't like it, please contact your legislator. This has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with your political opinion. Student7 (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a small point, but Lake Bridge was of course founded long before Newport Center. It later became Newport city. Why? Because you couldn't walk in Newport Center. It was a dense, inpenetrable forest. The only way to get around in the North Country was by lake and river. This is why Lake Bridge, Coventry, Barton Landing and Barton village were all founded before nearly evcrything else in the Northeast Kingdom. You just couldn't move except near rivers, lakes. (Okay animal trails and Indian trails but you couldn't move wagons yet - not enough room and trails were lousy. Not roads).Student7 (talk) 00:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Theory of "expansion of villages" - to take your theory that villages expand to the limits of the town, where exactly does Glover start and West Glover end? Both are unincorporated villages in Glover which is a town south of you. I've asked you before about Evansville and Brownington and it's many villages before but didn't get an answer. I guess you never heard of them. Student7 (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

When Newport Center village and Newport town merged, the name that was listed in the new charter was "Town of Newport". There is no current municipality in Vermont legally known as Newport Center. Because most people in the town lived in the area within the former bounds of Newport Center village, the two names could be used interchangeably without problems. However, while postal addresses for the entire town are indeed located in Newport Center, that does not mean the legal name of the town is Newport Center. As Student7 mentioned above, postal addresses don't always follow municipal lines. I suggest you propose a rename to WP:RM as I do agree that the commonly used name might not be Newport but "Newport Center". However, be warned that many Wiki editors seem to have a strong preference for consistency of names rather than the use of common names. --Polaron | Talk 00:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The title "Newport Center" would be appropriate for an article on the unincorporated village. If we had an article on the town and entitled it "Newport Center", it would be inherently inaccurate, since that's not the town's name. Nyttend (talk) 03:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

But you do realize that people who live in this town would normally call it "Newport Center" and not "Newport" or do you dispute that? I'm sure the people who prefer consistency would all come out against it but there is nothing inherently wrong about gauging where the wider community stands on place names -- what people who live there call it, or the legal name of the place. --Polaron | Talk 13:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Polaron, are you local? If not, so far, all we have is this one very persistent guy claiming this. Other locals (see below) seem to accept the legal name. Student7 (talk) 14:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

References by locals to Newport Town

Here is a website that requires people to sign up by school. The school is located in Newport Town which forty-two (42) graduates had no trouble finding and identifying with. http://www.classmates.com/directory/school/Newport%20Town%20Elementary%20School?org=16974811

So far, it is forty two verifiable people online to one. Student7 (talk) 13:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we're all agreed that the state refers to it that way, right? Just one example: http://education.vermont.gov/new/pdfdoc/pgm_assessment/data/06/NSRE/SCH_PS205_06.pdf

Too bad the old town clerk left. She knew what town she lived in. And so did the legislature and the legislator that represents Newport Town submitted this resolution, of course.

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2000/acts/actr259.htm

And the feds know:

http://www.fedspending.org/faads/faads.php?recip_id=640972&detail=-1

National websites name it correctly when refering to it:

http://vermont.schooltree.org/district/Newport-Town-School-District-016406.html

A national rating group:

http://educationseek.com/schools/USA/VT/ORLEANS/NEWPORT_CENTER/NEWPORT_TOWN_SCHOOL/

Six parents who live locally managed to find their own school and rate it online using the name "Newport Town."

http://www.greatschools.net/school/parentReviews.page?id=192&state=VT#from..Tab

If we change it, we are simply going to contribute to the confusion. It's not up to Wikipedia to "vote." We are supposed to take printed, online references where available and use them. We have done so here. Let's leave it at that and allow the unsubstantiated rants to continue. Student7 (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Just noting that most of the links above shows that while the name of the *school* is "Newport Town School", the place in which the school is located is shown as "Newport Center, VT". Now I'm not personally advocating a name change for the article but you have to admit that ordinary people don't call it as the Newport town, except in legal situations. Are there like news reports and travel guides that do otherwise? --Polaron | Talk 13:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

But there is a giant reason that the school is called "Newport Town School." The reason is that it is run by Newport Town, the town these people live in. They recognize it. There is hardly anyone in town. When something comes up, the paper uses "Newport Center" because a) the person is likely from the village anyway and b) it avoids confustion with Newport City right next door. We have this problem throughout the state (and county). Brownington is a prime example with the paper using "Brownington" when it doesn't want to pin down the place or one of its villages, often with the name of "Brownington" in it. Travel guides almost never use the town name even when it's unambiguous. The sites to see are almost always in a village anyway. So I don't think we can find any help there. Student7 (talk) 14:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be natural for people who live in an unincorporated village to speak of being from there? For example, take a person from the builtup area of Weathersfield in Windsor County: wouldn't it be natural for him or her to say, "I'm from Weathersfield Center"? Nothing is wrong with having the Weathersfield article remain at that title, despite the existence of such an unincorporated village named Weathersfield Center.

By the way, for a more authoritative source than the education department: state law refers to it as Newport. Nyttend (talk) 15:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I just asked my two brothers who live in the county and are well connected. One answered one way, one the other! Needless to say, they were startled by the question. No big deal to them! We could, I suppose, put an AKA in the lead sentence, much as is done for colleges. "Gators" for University of Florida, that sort of thing. Shall I start? Student7 (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

What did you ask them? If you ask "where do you live" and one says "Newport" and the other "Newport Center", that doesn't necessarily answer it: one may be thinking in terms of the unincorporated village and the other in terms of the town. If you asked "what town do you live in", that's different. Having the AKA seems a little inaccurate (do we have any references for those references of Newport Center being for the town specifically?), but if we find sources for that, it would be good to have. Nyttend (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We'll never have any official references unless the legislature changes the name. The official name can't really change for various reasons. But some locals clearly use "Newport Center." The post office is located in Newport city and they are quite happy having a separate zip now, but before zips were introduced only the reversion to "Newport Center" helped them to maintain good delivery I suppose. Still, the po managed before the split. They really haven't grown that much since. The media just wants to avoid being forced to use two words to describe both so it is quite happy to use "Newport Center." I don't know why the Town itself does so (if it does).

Oh, and the question was, "What do you call the town in which the village of Newport Center is located?" One answered (correctly) "The Town of Newport" the other, "Newport Center" to my surprise.

I was just hoping to put this behind us ASAP. Right now it's a fire that has to be put out once a week or so. Just a pain. Have to read through all that rant! A semi-protect would solve everything! :) Student7 (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to drop this; I agree that it's been a silly thing, since there aren't references to change things. Thanks for reminding us to stop! Nyttend (talk) 01:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

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