Talk:Next Time You See Me

Grateful Dead

The song was in frequent rotation for the Dead's live gigs during the Ron "Pigpen" McKernan era, first performed during 1966 and at least until 1972, when illness would force McKernan to retire from performing (he sang lead and played harmonica on the song; he died in 1973).Maccb (talk) 00:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

@Maccb: A quick search turned a couple of brief mentions.[1][2][3][4] Do you have anything more substantial? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

This should be good, I think. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:40, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mudwater: Hello. The two sources that were added appear to be self-published/user-generated. Deaddisc.com has a list of recordings by the Dead, related groups, and "other recordings". It does not include information about the publishers and editorial staff. There is a long list of contributors, but it's unknown if any meet the SPS exception. The DeadBase books are the only ones published by DeadBase and are by authors who don't appear to have published anything else. Access is unavailable, but it seems to be a listing of concert performances of the song.

WP:SONGCOVER advises that "the rendition [should be] discussed by a reliable source, showing that it is noteworthy in its own right. Merely appearing in an album track listing, a discography, etc., is not sufficient to show that a cover version is noteworthy; cover songs with only these types of sources should not be added to song articles, either as prose or in a list." Even if the two sources were considered RS, it appears that they are essentially lists and do not include discussions about the song or provide critical attention or commentary. "Next Time You See Me" is a somewhat popular song and Secondhandsongs.com shows 54 versions of (but not by the Dead). To add any, there needs to be some indication that it has received some attention, such as in an album or performance review, etc. If the sources only indicate that an artist has recorded or played it, then all 54 (or probably more) versions would be fair game. But long lists of occurences would not provide encyclopedic content and be contrary to WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

The best sources I found and linked above have little to say about the song except that Pigpen sang it and several recordings have been released. Without more discussion, there is really nothing to add to the article.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: Hey there. Thanks for the detailed note. I was not aware of the WP:SONGCOVER guidelines. Having read through them, my initial thought is that they're too strict. In general it's fine for Wikipedia articles to mention interesting details about an article's subject, as long as editors establish that they're factual, and as long as they're not too trivial. So then it's a judgement about where to draw the line. It seems to me that in this case, it makes the article better to add a few sentences about the Grateful Dead covering this song, and it would also be fine to mention other relatively well-known or popular covers. That said, I've so far not found any references that discuss the Grateful Dead cover versions of "Next Time You See Me" at any length. The two references that I included are sufficient to establish that the Dead did cover this song, in my opinion, but that's about it. In conclusion, I think it would be better to leave the additional material in the article, despite the fact that it doesn't fit in very well with WP:SONGCOVER. "P.S." Here's a video, for your viewing enjoyment, though admittedly it doesn't materially affect this discussion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:50, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mudwater: Self-published/user-generated/fansite-type sources should not be used for WP articles, How about:

"Next Time You See Me" was one of the blues and R&B songs that Ron "Pigpen" McKernan brought to the Grateful Dead during their formation. The song, with McKernan on vocals and harmonica, became part of their concert repertoire by 1967. According to group biographer Oliver Trager, they performed two different versions: he describes one as "a driving, uptempo rendition" and the other as "a somewhat rarer and moodier take sung as a duet with [Jerry] Garcia". The group often played the song in the early 1970s and live recordings are included on several albums, such as Hundred Year Hall (recorded April 26, 1972), Europe '72 Volume 2 (recorded April 14, 1972), and Rockin' the Rhein with the Grateful Dead (recorded April 24, 1972).

• Shenk, David; Silberman, Steve (2015). Skeleton Key: A Dictionary for Deadheads. Crown. ISBN 978-1101905630.
• Trager, Oliver (1997). The American Book of the Dead. Touchstone Books. ISBN 978-0684814025.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:02, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: Wow, looks great. Thanks! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 17:46, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mudwater: Out of curiosity, I tried to find the moodier duet with Garcia on YT without luck. Do you know of one? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: Good question, but, all the versions I'm familiar with are of the uptempo variety. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 16:41, 14 May 2023 (UTC)