Talk:Nguyễn An

Content

To User:Sea888, why are you insisting on adding back these statements to the beginning (and the end) of the article about Nguyễn An was the only principle designer since it is clear from the electronic academic journal cited [1] that he wasn't a sole builder and that the Forbidden City had various major planners and designers, not to mention chief architects who were doing the main technical works i.e. masonry and carpentry; and there is no single architect or designer in charge of the design of the whole project. Sea888, we are writing an encyclopedia article here, thus the content should at least flow well. Try not to add duplicating content.--TheLeopard (talk) 15:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

He was the designer who played a key-role, not the only one (added with source).--Amore Mio (talk) 16:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Sea888 has just removed all information with source?.--Amore Mio (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Architect

One thing I find it a bit of puzzling (to my modern view) about the category used in the article is that while he was a Vietnamese and was born there, but is it accurate to call him a Vietnamese architect since he was taken to China as a little boy and worked in China and I assume lived and died there as well? To be called a Vietnamese architect (or American, French or any designations), shouldn't he suppose to lived and did architectural works in Vietnam as well? So the question is, can Nguyễn An be called a Vietnamese architect without "being" an "architect" in Vietnam?--TheLeopard (talk) 16:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

According to a printed book that I have (but it's a Vietnamese language book, so I won't use it), he lived almost his whole life in China and died in 1456, near Shandong, China. Therefore, we should call him Chinese architect; but I'm confused in his Vietnamese root. Should we make an category Vietnamese Chinese?--Amore Mio (talk) 16:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I changed the category Vietnamese architect to Chinese architect and Vietnamese people. If I were wrong please revert.--Amore Mio (talk) 17:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

In order for Nguyễn An to be technically classified as a "Vietnamese architect", an example would have to be if he went to China already as an established architect and helped design this project, building, etc., and then went back to Vietnam and continued his career. His biography is that he grew-up and trained in China and lived there until he died, so I guess the categorization of a Vietnamese architect doesn't make a lot of sense.--TheLeopard (talk) 17:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

He was took to China in 1407. Before that time, he was an royal builder/architect of Tran Dynasty; so I think the category Vietnamese architects is suitable. We are making mistake because of an unsourced information.

If no one object, I will use a Vietnamese language source to write about this information (as well as his birth year and death year).--Amore Mio (talk) 00:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Because the lacking of in-line citation, I temporarily removed the category Chinese architects and replaced it with the category architects.--Amore Mio (talk) 01:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it OK now?--Amore Mio (talk) 23:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Please, try to use English language sources for references, as this is an English language article.

Wasn't he a child when he was taken to China, as he was believed to be? If he died in 1453, and was taken to China in 1407 (almost 5 decades in time span), what year was he born? This needs to be verified?--TheLeopard (talk) 08:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

What could I do if English language sources couldn't be found in this case? In article Beijing, I saw a lot of Chinese source.

The Vietnamese source that I have said he born in 1381, in Ha Tay. BTW, don't remove hydraulic specialist on the open sentence, this was the work that he did for China when he was old until his death.--Amore Mio (talk) 09:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there an English source that can confirm this date? Is there an electronic source? If it is a book, does the book you are referring to have an ISBN number? The problem is that if it is a non-electronic foreign language source, it makes it impossible to verify. You stated earlier above that according to a Vietnamese language book, he lived almost his whole life in China and died in 1456...so how come there is some big inconsistency?--TheLeopard (talk) 09:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

In this time, I had only a litle information about Nguyen An; and I could not trust online sources for any history/sino-vietnam related topic. The first book that I referred is different than the current book. In the first book, the author wrote only about Nguyen An's works and his death cause and date; I think he has no source about Nguyen An early life which misled him to write a statement "Nguyễn An sống hầu như đến hết đời ở Trung Quốc" (English: Nguyen An lived in China until his death).

Could you use Google translate for these:

• http://www.hau.edu.vn/Tinchuyennganh/Kientrucsu/KTS_007.htm (Hanoi Architectural University)
• http://www.vnexpress.net/GL/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2005/05/3B9DEAB8/ (vnExpress Online Magazine)
• http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mofa.gov.vn/quocte/13,05/hoan%20quan%20tgqt13,05.htm (Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Vietnam).

Non-electronic foreign language source is not impossible to verify if you provide enough informations such as: the author, the publisher, the publishing place etc. that let people track down the book to verify. About ISBN number, I could not find any book, which was published in Vietnam, have ISBN number and I don't know why.

If you don't trust me, I won't use this book. I will use Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Vietnam and Hanoi Architectural University's sources instead of offline source.--Amore Mio (talk) 09:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

And if you lives in Taiwan, I could find 张秀民：“明代建设大北京：越南人参加了这工作，一位天才建筑家阮安”(署名越人)，《进步日报》(天津)，1950年2月2日。 and 张秀民：“明太监交趾人阮安营造北京考，”《中国东南亚研究会通讯》，1988，(1-2)：1-4。 A lot of Vietnamese language sources which wrote about Nguyen An based on these sources (I didn't read them, book authors cited them on their book).--Amore Mio (talk) 17:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I used google translate on the first link (http://www.hau.edu.vn/Tinchuyennganh/Kientrucsu/KTS_007.htm); the third link however doesn't open anything of content (?). However, the quality of the translation was very poor, and I could understand only a snippets of content in the translated article, due to the fragmented translation and grammer. Most of the information translated are not readable.--TheLeopard (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The third link is down due to technical problems or lacking of bandwith although this is a government website. You might use internet archive to read its contents, I will wait until this link come online again.--Amore Mio (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Article title

Shouldn't this be at Nguyen An? Older browers can't display the double accenture, and I'm pretty sure the most common English name for this guy is not going to have the marks.

On that note, are we sure that the most common English name uses the Vietnamese rather than Mandarin pronunciation? I ask because the historical sources about his life are mostly Chinese, and I don't know whether academic sources transliterate his name directly from the Chinese or through rendering into Vietnamese first. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I personally support the title Nguyen An without tone marks because almost all English speaker can't read tone mark. In my opinion, a title with tone mark is nonsense in English Wikipedia.

According to my research, Nguyen An was the most common English name

• [2]
• [3]
• [4]
• [5]

I guess English language academic sources got his name (阮安) from a Chinese source and then rendered it directly into Vietnamese (see the note #29).--Amore Mio (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh okay that looks good. I would support the article being at Nguyen An then. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Needs Hán tự

Needs Hán tự. Badagnani (talk) 06:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't locate a WP:RS for hán tự but his name might be rendered from 阮安. The character 安 stands for "peace".--Amore Mio (talk) 06:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

His name in Chinese is 阮安. Good enough, I would think. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Did he speak northern Chinese (Mandarin)

Did he speak in northern Chinese? Being a viet, did he already know Cantonese? 2A00:23C5:C105:7B00:A0D0:825E:FF2E:23B4 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Ancient Vietnamese spoke old Chinese until they conquered and lived with Cham and Khmer people in late 15th century.2601:204:E37F:FFF1:1C63:C3C1:C9B:F1B (talk) 07:44, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 阮安.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)