Talk:Nicholas Winton/Archive 1

Archive 1

Elisabeth Maxwell

Could someone please add info about E.Maxwell and her show where she confronted him with the survivors? Thanks! --88.100.101.113 21:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply: Here is a link to a short video clip of the Nicholas Winton / Elisabesth Maxwell program:

http://www.godvine.com/Man-Who-Saved-Over-600-Kids-From-Nazis-Gets-a-Touching-Surprise-1737.html

I haven't added the following as I have seen it somewhere (snippets in various places) and cannot recall all of the references.

My understanding is that Nicholas Winton's wife passed (copies of?) the material she found in the loft to Elizabeth Maxwell, and that this led to involvement of the media in a research capacity. Somehow, the matter came to the attention of Esther Rantzen who arranged for the "confrontation" on an edition of the programme "That's Life". Winton thought he had been asked to speak about something else he had done, and I don't think (but I am not sure) that the people he saved who were there knew the details of what he had done or that he would be there.

The journalist Joe Schlesinger was one of those rescued and there is an interview in which he describes some of the events surrounding the That's Life edition in question, and where a (silent) clip shows the moment all was revealed. That link is on the Wikipedia page for Joe Schlesinger, and is where it says he has since talked about the experience.

I believe that the Daily Mirror published the story of Nicholas Winton on the same day as the That's Life programme was broadcast.

An extensive account of these events is to be found on the following url: http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020201/power.shtml (82.29.215.250 15:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

This television show was referenced on tonight's episode of The Journal on CBC.68.145.185.64 (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

It was the original material, perhaps from the loft, but was never 'lost' or forgotten.Brockaly24 (talk) 20:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC) Brockaly24 (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia ???

The article currently reads: "In 2001, Charles and Rita Gelman of Ann Arbor, MI visited Czechoslovakia shortly after September 11th." But in 2001 Czechoslovakia didn't exist, so this can't be right. Did they visit both the Czech Republic and Slovakia, or just one of the two? Marcoscramer 10:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right, Czechoslovakia is now two sovereign states (the Czech Republic and Slovakia), but I have still changed the article to read "Sir Nicholas George Winton, MBE (born 19 May 1909) is a Briton who organised the rescue of about 669 mostly Jewish CZECHOSLOVAKIAN children from their doomed fate in the Nazi death camps before World War II in an operation known as the Czech Kindertransport." Some of the children were Czechs, some were Slovaks. All were saved through the selfless actions of a few people and the miseries visited upon the then Czechoslovak people should not be revised because of the occasional European frenzy of cartographic realignment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.93.140 (talk) 01:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Righteous Among the Nations

The article currently states that Winton is "...ineligible to be recognised as one of the Righteous Among the Nations at Yad Vashem" due to being a Jew converted to Christianity. He is listed, however, in the List of Righteous Among the Nations Can anyone help clarify this inconsistency? Doc Dish 19:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

He has been removed from that article and he isn't listed on Yad Vashem's official website.Noneforall (talk) 02:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

2003 Knighthood

It is mentioned that Nicholas Winton received a knighthood in the 2003 New Years Honours list.

The 2003 New Year Honours (BBC) says he is awarded a 'Knight Bachelor'.

I see no reason why he is not fashioned 'Sir Nicholas Winton'. The only debate seems to be whether to use the post-nominal KB (or probably 'Kt' ahead of his MBE.

Therefore, I suggest he should be listed as 'Sir Nicholas Winton, KB, MBE' or 'Sir Nicholas Winton, Kt, MBE'

I have also found a supporting reference in the London Gazette referring to him as 'Sir', so will change the main title accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PuzzleScot (talk • contribs) 10:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

"Sir Nicholas Winton, MBE" is sufficient. Certainly not KB, which is an obsolete postnominal for Knights of the Bath. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 19:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Quality standard of the article

While it's nice that this article has received a lot of attention in the last few days, I'm dismayed at the poor quality of some of the changes, as editors are simply not reading the references correctly:

The "Ha'aretz.com" article clearly states that he received his knighthood in 2002 for his work in Czechoslovakia; his MBE, 20 years earlier, was for his work for elderly Britons.

The lede has recently been changed to state that he "organised the rescue of 669 Jewish children rounded up by the Nazis on the eve of World War II" - is the level of historic knowledge among editors so poor that they do not know that roundups had not happened at that stage - their parents were getting them out in anticipation of what would come.

Why is the Ha'aretz link entitled "Saint Nicholas"? The phrase occurs nowhere in the linked reference.

Not too impressed with the standard of referencing either - we need to user proper cite templates, and avoid the multiple appearance of the same reference with different citations.

I'll try to fix some of the deficiencies. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Righteous Among the Nations 2

The article claims Winton was not entitled "Righteous Among the Nations" due to his Jewish origin. While this is true, I don't think he would get this honour anyhow, although of course he is a great man, since one of the criteria is that the act of rescuing Jews put the rescuer in danger. דב ט. (talk) 10:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Last Group

The article says that the last train left on 3rd September 1939 but was turned back. Elsewhere I've seen it said that the last train was scheduled to leave Prague on 1st September 1939 but refused permission to do so. So, which facts are correct? Spsmiler (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

See also Talk:Winton Train#The 9th train. MickMacNee (talk) 10:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The last train was scheduled to leave Prague on 1st September 1939 but refused permission to do so. Of the 250 children who were ready to leave on that train only one is believed to have survived. Ref: Winton, Barbara. If it's Not Impossible... The life of Sir Nicholas Winton. Matador ISBN 978-1-78306-520-2. Brockaly24 (talk) 15:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Surname

"No. 34567". The London Gazette. 4 November 1938. suggests that it was not until 1938 that the family changed its name to Winton. Up to that point they had been using Wortham and Wertheim (though British law is such that could have used Winton for most purposes, but this deed poll is the official change). David Underdown (talk) 15:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Scrapbook found in the attic?

I just saw a documetary about Winton Train 2009 where Sir Nicholas's daughter Barbara said that the story about her mother finding a scrapbook in the attic is not true, that it was probably just fabricated by media. Jasooon (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, we don't remove sourced information based on such doubts. If you have the actual details of the documentary, maybe the counter-point can be included, but I seriously doubt it was a fabrication on the part of the media. MickMacNee (talk) 20:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know which documentary is being referred to above. The attic story is mentioned on page 56 of The rescue of the Prague refugees 1938/39 ( UK media fabrication? Surely not)Brockaly24 (talk) 20:51, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is here an interview with Barbara Winton, (Sir Nicholas's daughter) confirming it was not at all hidden information and the scrapbook was actually sent by Winton himself to the daily mail --Jsavalle (talk) 14:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The Rescue of the Prague Refugees 1938-39 by William Chadwick

For a balanced account of the rescue see William Chadwick's book:The Rescue of the Prague Refugees 1938-39. William is the son of Trevor Chadwick who managed the Prague end of the "single-handed rescue". In a talk to Sevenoaks school Sir Nicholas stated that the rescue would have been impossible without Trevor Chadwick. Brockaly24 (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

60 Minutes

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1939-letter-found-plea-to-fdr-to-save-jewish-kids/

71.212.44.45 (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Biography

The biography of Sir Nicholas Winton has now been written by his daughter Barbara Winton: If its Not Impossible... The Life of Sir Nicholas Winton ISBN 9781783065202. Brockaly24 (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Schindler ?

With no disrespect to mr. Schindler, I do not find correct to compare Sir Winton to mr. Schindler, for various reasons. First of all, Winton was never member of NSDAP. Secondly, he was not a weapons producer for Nazi Germany. And third of all, he was not a spy for Abwehr. Hi did save a lot of people, as well as Schindler did, but their motivation and background is not trully the same, and just because some journalist in BBC tend to call him "british Schindler", it shouldn't be in Wikipedia, because I feel its very dis-respectful to sir Winton, to be compared to member of Nazi party and such an opportunist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.158.148.22 (talk) 12:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not making this comparison. It is merely reporting a comparison, apparently widely held, but made by others. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Spouse

I suggest the following formatting change to the Spouse section: (current format drops the "99" of the death year to a new line. Is not congruent)

     spouse = Grete Gjelstrup
(1948–1999,her death)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.30.219.158 (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

complete by fixing the template --Trödel 21:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Prague memorial

added info on Winton's memorial in Prague. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.178.8.107 (talk) 21:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the statue. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The British press dubbed him the "British Schindler"

Wow!

If the British press dubbed him that, it dubbed him that. And it may have to be mentioned here.

Although the two characters had completely different biographies. - Or were there threats to Wertheim's life in Britain when he organized, in secure Britain, the saving of his fellow countrymen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.76.238 (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Maybe a little bit mean-minded. True, Sir Nicholas was never under direct threat, as he freely said himself in Prague. But the storm was definitely gathering. Jews in the German sphere of influence were already under severe restrictions, and many of the Czechoslovak parents who waved their children off must have been aware that they were probably 'putting them on the last lifeboat'. 'Schindler' is just a figure of speech. He was different to Schindler. Not greater or lesser, just different. The word 'Schindler' is used because he was the subject of a film made in the USA. When Hollywood makes the movie of Mr Winton's life, he will be an American. 5.81.29.251 (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Early Life

SaucyJimmy changed, in his two edits, information about Winton's family without providing sources. I reverted them. It looked as if his info was supported by the references that had been already in the article, which is disruptive editing by misrepresenting the sources. However, the information may have been true - see for example https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34567/page/6930/data.pdf On the other hand, I did not find reliable sources containing the years etc. Geni.com is probably a user-generated content, and SaucyJimmy has a history of blockings, adding unsourced info etc. I of course welcome adding the info again, backed by sources, or a discussion on this topic. --WikiHannibal (talk) 08:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Other names

A citation is requested for Other names Chaim Wertheimer but I think some editor has crossed wires with this article https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chaim_Wertheimer. Should the 'Other names' be deleted? Cotton2 (talk) 02:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I did not notice it before. I removed it. As for why it was added, you might want to ask User:TDKR Chicago 101 who, it seems, added it 1. July 2015 without a source. (The infobox had been previously deleted but such info had not been in it.) --WikiHannibal (talk) 09:52, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't recall adding the name. It must have happened when I copied and past the infobox from the Simple English. When Winton died the article has no infobox so I copied it from the simple and pasted it to this one. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

In that case I apologize. The infobox had been removed the same day you had put it back so I did not think about other possibilities. Unfortunately the simple english version still contains unsourced and dubious info. --WikiHannibal (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Scrapbook found in attic etc.

"After the war, he did not discuss his efforts with anyone; his wife found out what he had done only after she discovered a scrapbook in their attic in 1988, detailing the children's parents and the families that took them in."

Fed up with this mythical nonsense.(With apologies to Matej Mináč) Even I knew the story in 1979. Please see Barbara Winton's Biography of Sir Nicholas. Brockaly24 (talk) 21:01, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

If you have the biography to hand, perhaps could you suggest a suitable improvement? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Brockaly24, you removed it from the lead of the article, which is fine, but the (sourced) text is still in the article, and should stay there, until a better - independent - source on the scrapbook is find. --WikiHannibal (talk) 12:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, independent evidence for the rescue not being a secret is demonstrated on page 234 of Barbara Winton’s book: If it’s Not Impossible… : Winton’s election card for Maidenhead Borough Council Elections, Thursday May 13th 1954. Under personal Details: … “after Munich evacuated 600 refugee children from Chechoslovakia.”(sic). Re: Scrapbook:Page 1 of the biography: “ His search for a home for an old scrapbook of his, documenting the transportation of over 600 children from Czechoslovakia to Britain in 1939, … … She, (Dr Elizabeth Maxwell) in turn, had been shown it by my father…” Brockaly24 (talk) 14:15, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Glad someone else picked up on that, i removed it as well since it was unsourced. Not sure why one of the editors abouve thought it was correct to revert the removal of unsourced material because i hadn't sourced that it was incorrect, its completely the wrong way to go about biographies on wikipedia. As this election material highlights he wasn't exactly backwards about coming forwards with the information so the line in the body of the text is quite clearly untrue.

It can not be seriously suggested that while running for parliament in 1954, 6 years after getting married to a woman he met while working for the IBRD presumable off his back of work for two separate refugee organisations and with him mentioning it in his personal details section that his wife didn't find out till 1988? Its fanciful nonsense. Narom (talk) 23:40, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Source found: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/09/british-schindler-nicholas-winton-interview "another piece of apocrypha is that the story only came to light in the late 1980s because his wife unearthed the old scrapbook while she was cleaning out the loft. Family memories are hazy, but it seems they had talked about his role in the evacuation and did know about the scrapbook, though the reason why Grete took it upon herself to show it to Mrs Maxwell has been lost."''. Edits made to the article to reflect. Probably reads rubbish but it was 1am here, but atleast it reflects the facts more Narom (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Can I point out that in 1954 Nicholas Winton wasn't standing for Parliament (there was no election that year) but for a seat on Wokingham Town Council? Sam Blacketer (talk) 00:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

You can, apologies, i'll amend the article to reflect. Tired eyes reading incorrectly. Plus added source from above, albeit a youtube video but passes WP:YOUTUBE Narom (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank all of you for your edits+refs. If I am the the editor who "thought it was correct to revert the removal of unsourced material", and the removal is Brockaly24's edit, we can discuss that (but there is no point now). (To explain, I reintroduced part of what Brockaly24 removed from the lead, according to the sourced text in the article as I explained above. So I did not "revert the removal of unsourced material".) Brockaly24's commenting the edit above was not credible (neutral+WP:COI --WikiHannibal (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

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Support for Stalin

Winton praised Stalin, even after the dictator's death. Should this not be mentioned? (86.132.175.244 (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2018 (UTC))

Source? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I cannot find the source for this Item and suspect the title is misleading. (Brockaly24 (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2019 (UTC))

Winton was a lifelong admirer of Stalinism and refused to condemn the brutal Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. (86.161.73.144 (talk) 19:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC))

Again total fiction. No source. This item should be deleted. Brockaly24 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:36, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

"Saved from the Holocaust"

I removed the ridiculous and overemotional statement that these children were saved from the Holocaust. This was in 1939 and according to your own article, the Holocaust didn't start until 1941. Also, the BBC source does not use the word Holocaust at all, so this is editorialising. This is ridiculous crystal-balling and speculation, they were no more saved two years early from the Holocaust as I was from the 2015 Paris attacks by leaving the city just four months before. I guess everyone working in elevators in WTC in 1999 saved people from 9/11, mega lol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palestine1972 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Catholic

Nicolas Winton was a catholic. That fact is conspicuously absent, particularly when juxtaposed to his saving the lives of jewish children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.89.228.162 (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Winton was born Jewish, baptised into the Anglican Church, and died atheist or agnostic. pburka (talk) 20:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)